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laws' legacy

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Improve the squad on a negative transfer balance of how many £million?!?!

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We were consistent for a small chunk in the middle of his reign at the club, and the stats might have shown a fairly even split of wins, draws and losses but those stats don't tell the whole story. Was there an even split of Wins across each season? Was there a similar level of performance home and away each season? I would suggest there was not. If you remember, a few months ago and as early as October I was on here talking about how we were averaging our worst points to games ratio since BL had been at the club. At the time many on here shot me down with comments like "we're only X games into the season" and "we're only X points off the play offs". If you look at the form of the club during BL's time here, then it pretty much shows a period of decline and a few periods of stability. There would be hardly any periods of improvement if you graphed our form under BL.

I personally think we simply reached a tipping point under BL. We lost too many good players and replaced them with players who were either either worse or just different to a degree that either upset the balance of the team tactically or mentally.

We could argue for ever about degrees of how much better or worse the squad is over the last 6/12/18 months or however long you choose. But what I'm talking about is a steep and sudden change in performances and results that goes well beyond a more subtle amalgamation of circumstances as you describe.

I think your analysis of my statistics about our previous consistency is quite remarkable. Given that I'm arguing something significant changed suddenly last October/November it made sense to look at our form prior to that. Obviously, choosing 78 games was no accident as it puts the best possible spin on my conclusion, but making it 70, 80 or 90 won't make all that much difference in the bigger picture. That's almost two full seasons (actually across three different ones) of evidence prior to the run that ended Laws' tenure. Look at our league position for each week of 2008/9 - it is relentlessly consistent. For you to split hairs about whether we performed at the same level repeatedly (how the hell would we measure that?) or won the same number of games each season (he was only manager for two full ones and each in different circumstances) is set up for a pre-conceived conclusion.

The FACT remains that we equally split wins, losses and draws over a long period before abruptly losing almost every game. To point out that runs of form might have peaked and troughed over that period is hardly an earth-shattering revelation and does absolutely nothing to undermine the main thrust of our results over the last two years or so. I appreciate that there may have been a slight downturn in the last few months, but that doesn't go remotely far enough to explain the more recent plummet. The idea that a squad which hadn't changed all that much throughout that time suddenly became thoroughly useless almost overnight without a tangible root cause(s) is much more of a reach than anything I've put forward. And with two or three perfectly plausible suggestions made for possible causes of squad disharmony, I think it deserves more serious consideration than some are giving it.

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laws isnt the manager now

we are still losing

That's why the thread is called 'Laws' legacy.' Edited by M Royds

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brian laws signed some of the worst players ive seen in 20 years supporting the owls, it was and still is a shambolic effort of a team, laws was an ok man manager, but i wouldn't trust him with a penny in the transfer market.

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We were consistent for a small chunk in the middle of his reign at the club, and the stats might have shown a fairly even split of wins, draws and losses but those stats don't tell the whole story. Was there an even split of Wins across each season? Was there a similar level of performance home and away each season? I would suggest there was not. If you remember, a few months ago and as early as October I was on here talking about how we were averaging our worst points to games ratio since BL had been at the club. At the time many on here shot me down with comments like "we're only X games into the season" and "we're only X points off the play offs". If you look at the form of the club during BL's time here, then it pretty much shows a period of decline and a few periods of stability. There would be hardly any periods of improvement if you graphed our form under BL.

I personally think we simply reached a tipping point under BL. We lost too many good players and replaced them with players who were either either worse or just different to a degree that either upset the balance of the team tactically or mentally.

In addition to my previous reply, out of curiosity I thought I'd look our results up in a little more detail to see if your point about a gradual decline due to poor management had anything tangible going for it. I arbitrarily picked periods of 10 games at a time to see how much our form fluctuated over the last 100 games and found that it backed up my argument of consistency thoroughly (and actually more than I expected).

This period dates back to 20th October 2007 and commences with the 4-2 win away to Stoke City. What follows is a breakdown of our results since then, 10 games at a time :

W5 D3 L2

W2 D3 L5

W3 D3 L4

W3 D6 L1

W4 D3 L3

W3 D2 L5

W2 D4 L4

W3 D3 L4

W4 D3 L3

W4 D2 L4

(TOTAL W33 D32 L35)

Then we travelled to Preston, exactly two years later to the day (since the start of these statistics). Until Alan Irvine was appointed our record following this was :

W0 D3 L10

If that doesn't obliterate and scatter to the winds the gradual decline theory, I don't know what does.

Edited by DJMortimer

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In addition to my previous reply, out of curiosity I thought I'd look our results up in a little more detail to see if your point about a gradual decline due to poor management had anything tangible going for it. I arbitrarily picked periods of 10 games at a time to see how much our form fluctuated over the last 100 games and found that it backed up my argument of consistency thoroughly (and actually more than I expected).

This period dates back to 20th October 2007 and commences with the 4-2 win away to Stoke City. What follows is a breakdown of our results since then, 10 games at a time :

W5 D3 L2

W2 D3 L5

W3 D3 L4

W3 D6 L1

W4 D3 L3

W3 D2 L5

W2 D4 L4

W3 D3 L4

W4 D3 L3

W4 D2 L4

(TOTAL W33 D32 L35)

Then we travelled to Preston, exactly two years later to the day (since the start of these statistics). Until Alan Irvine was appointed our record following this was :

W0 D3 L10

If that doesn't obliterate and scatter to the winds the gradual decline theory, I don't know what does.

DJ, You have hit the nail on the head with these posts. There was a dramatic problem in late October and the team has under performed ever since. Probably only LS is actually left at the club who knows exactly what happened - and whether it can be sorted in time.

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Guest Stereophonics

It may be BL squad still but AI was brought in knowing that this was the situation he would be in, managers have to work with other manager's squads when coming in near the end of the season. AI job is to motivate the players using the skills he has until he is able to bring in his own players.

Do you think that we would have lost 5-0 to Reading is we had, say, Warnock in charge, even with another manager's players?

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He's easilly the best manager we've had this season. He did a fantastic job at Wednesday in untenable circumstances. The folk who blame him for our current woes are beyond belief. It might be more comfortable to blame a far away figure and continue in the belief that those in charge now ar great, but it's codswallop. We are where we are because over the last two months we have not been good enough to get away from it. We have a manager who doesn't understand players and who can't motivate them.

Well AI has only just arrived

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It may be BL squad still but AI was brought in knowing that this was the situation he would be in, managers have to work with other manager's squads when coming in near the end of the season. AI job is to motivate the players using the skills he has until he is able to bring in his own players.

Do you think that we would have lost 5-0 to Reading is we had, say, Warnock in charge, even with another manager's players?

I doubt it would have happened with Warnock or Bassett

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DJ, You have hit the nail on the head with these posts. There was a dramatic problem in late October and the team has under performed ever since. Probably only LS is actually left at the club who knows exactly what happened - and whether it can be sorted in time.

It will be interesting to see if even Laws' most ardent critics continue to be blind to the mounting evidence (I've done 5 different analyses now in a couple of threads and all point to the same conclusion) that something abruptly changed around the end of last October and that their theory of gradual decline due to managerial incompetence should now be abandoned as comprehensively shattered.

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Its about mental strength, attitude and character.

Something completely sapped that last October - but - it was fragile before that, even the first home game bore the hallmarks of limited resilience.

The events [whatever they were] of last year finally severed the last sinew of resolve and commitment.

AI has tried to repair it and it just held during his initial games until Forest away. A criminal refereeing decision, the loss of JJ as an outlet and the born-again Purse's ability to organise and lead by example has been instrumental in the break down over recent weeks.

The whole team is affected and if it continues, Lee Grant as the most consistent performer amongst the lot of them will inevitably follow suit....

Its not about wholly about ability or technical skill and any prospective player should be rigorously scrutinised for their fighting spirit as part of the acquisition process. We should have players in each position who will not be steamrollered and at the moment we do not have one 'weak-link' - we have a dozen with three or four exceptions.

In our most successful seasons over the last 30 years, each line in the formation had at least two with massive mental strength who could assert themselves on the pitch, whether it was the diligent Irish who would deposit Lee Sharpe in the stand in the first minute or the cultured Shezz that would sledge his opponent [and the ref] all game, Palmer carping and biting, Lee Bullen, Graham Coughlan, Danny Wilson, David Hirst et al.

What I would give to have the nasty but not technically gifted Grant Holt back at S6 in the closing stages of the season doesn't bear thinking about.

Nice guys including those wearing gloves on a spring day does not instill confidence in the ability to take the fight to the opposition.

Edited by Briscoe Inferno

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Now that my theory of an October/November 2009 pivotal moment(s) has become official Owlstalk policy on the matter :biggrin:, we then move onto what is happening right now. It's possible that the players are fully committed :dry: but our previous bad run has made us mentally fragile, but I still can't help thinking that whatever hope arrived with Alan Irvine has now gone and that we are back in the same boat we were a few months ago with the same issues as before being the primary factor. Unfortunately, we are reduced to speculation and conjecture as to the possible causes or what might be done about them.

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I think, DJ, the answer is obvious

given our great run of form when Irvine first came in and our subsequent regression to the mean, we need to sack Irvine and appoint a new manager.

If we do this twice more this season, we will end up with around 10 wins, which would shoot us up the table.

LEE YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO

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I think, DJ, the answer is obvious

given our great run of form when Irvine first came in and our subsequent regression to the mean, we need to sack Irvine and appoint a new manager.

If we do this twice more this season, we will end up with around 10 wins, which would shoot us up the table.

LEE YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO

:biggrin:

Neil Warnock anyone...?

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Now that my theory of an October/November 2009 pivotal moment(s) has become official Owlstalk policy on the matter :biggrin:, we then move onto what is happening right now. It's possible that the players are fully committed :dry: but our previous bad run has made us mentally fragile, but I still can't help thinking that whatever hope arrived with Alan Irvine has now gone and that we are back in the same boat we were a few months ago with the same issues as before being the primary factor. Unfortunately, we are reduced to speculation and conjecture as to the possible causes or what might be done about them.

In conclusion, I hold the person not doing due diligence on players brought in responsible for the situation we are in.

What happened to the old addage that a side could only afford one 'flair' player - i.e. one that never put a shift in but who's technical skill could turn a game in a second.

Sadly we have a sh1tload of these gloved players but none posess any redeeming stellar technical skill whatsover......the thin end of the wedge for me was having Petter Rudi and Sibon in the same side and it went t1ts up from there..... :biggrin:

Edited by Briscoe Inferno

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It will be interesting to see if even Laws' most ardent critics continue to be blind to the mounting evidence (I've done 5 different analyses now in a couple of threads and all point to the same conclusion) that something abruptly changed around the end of last October and that their theory of gradual decline due to managerial incompetence should now be abandoned as comprehensively shattered.

Wasn't this about the time of the AGM?

Laws came across incredibly nervous, and he - and Lee - clearly sensed that the audience was not prepared for any more of Laws' platitudes and cheeky-chappie wisecracks/sound-bites - especially ProZone bullsh*t.

What changed was that he was rumbled. Simple as.

"You can fool some of the people all of time, and you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can't ....." (I'm sure we're all familiar with the rest) ... :-)

Edited by carlg

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Laws left us an unbalanced squad devoid of any cover at left back and short on wingers.

How hard is it to assemble a squad of 22 players

2 GK

2 RB

2 LB

4 CB

2 RW

2 LW

4 MID

4 ST

Hopefully Irvine will do this over the summer

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Wasn't this about the time of the AGM?

Laws came across incredibly nervous, and he - and Lee - clearly sensed that the audience was not prepared for any more of Laws' platitudes and cheeky-chappie wisecracks/sound-bites - especially ProZone bullsh*t.

What changed was that he was rumbled. Simple as.

"You can fool some of the people all of time, and you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can't ....." (I'm sure we're all familiar with the rest) ... :-)

:laugh:

Yeah, those 100 games of consistent form is such flimsy evidence when it's up against the unassailable 'he was rumbled'. And it only took two and a half years.

Try again.

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With regards to Laws managerial ability i think back to his first xmas in charge.

We drew with Southampton at home 3-3 then had two great away wins at Stoke and Barnsley with both MacLean and Wayne Andrews chipping in with goals and great performances.

Bank Holiday Monday at home to Hull, Laws in his wisdom decides 4 games over xmas is too much for the players and drops our best performers over those games and totally changes a team full of confidence. We're down at half time at home to a team battling relegation (Laws has the dropped players on the field by 55 minutes but its too late) and before Laws realises it its 2 months before we win again (a win that day would have had us right in the Promotion race). A late rally left us a few points short.

I knew that day the guy was clueless.

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:laugh:

Yeah, those 100 games of consistent form is such flimsy evidence when it's up against the unassailable 'he was rumbled'. And it only took two and a half years.

Try again.

Beg to differ, DJM. To me your relentless defence of him seems almost a case of "he doth protest too much" ... ? ;-)

Never once did I feel comfortable with him at the helm - along with many others it seems - sure, I congratulated him and the lads on here when we got victories that warranted such accolades, but that was rare.

The guy was/is a chancer. We've all known them in life. Billy Bullshit.

I was reminded of Laws' ability the other day when during some match a respected pundit - can't recall who but a respected ex player - said "You should NEVER do a substitution at the time of a corner."

I seem to recall BL doing exactly that a few times. And we usually ended up conceding ....

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