History and Expectations vs "The debt"

[Bluesteel]

Ive been thinking recently, after attending and listening to games where hillsborough is pretty much dead, reading the general mood on forums etc that there is more to the whole problem of SWFC than the debt.

By the sounds of things, (and correct me if I'm wrong) we are told that the club is on an even keel making a very small amount of money with the debt put to one side to be paid off at a later date (albeit a yearly charge of 500k). The money we generate from attendances then goes towards the playing budget.

Therefore, does this debt only restrict us in the sense that we have to service it by 500k per year? Obviously its a bad situation but surely other clubs dont benefit from our average attendance which brings a great deal of money to our coffers, despite being pretty cack for the last ten years. Investment by the sounds of things still wouldnt provide us with money to pay transfer fees so it would still be working within the current structure of developing a wage budget of around £6.5 million in the first instance?

I personally think the biggest problem is who we are and our opinions of ourselves. Im proud to be a Wednesdayite, I love the club and Im proud of the players Ive watched in the past and our achievements. But I cant help but think that this is now holding us back, with the resulting discontent, booing, poor atmosphere, apathy etc.

Take Doncaster for example, a team higher in the league than us, a bit more money to spend and coming off the back of a win at Forest, they should be favourites. Yet when we lose, we still have that feeling of humiliation and embarrassment...because were SWFC and "we should be beating them".

Other local teams such as donny, barnsley and rotherham even when they play poorly, I doubt they often boo their players. But sections of our support do it because we think we need better than this. Ideally we would have better than this, but perhaps after ten long years its time for everyone to realise that the poisonous atmosphere that turns us against our own team in the time of need which is the biggest problem.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Bluesteel

[sc1349]

Are you suggesting we move to slightly smaller ground, like the song goes ' your grounds too big for you'.

[Bluesteel]

No as that wouldnt make business sense, its always better to have the potential capacity...and we do have the potential to fill it on occassion.

I dont think there really is an easy answer, but being the historically successful team in South Yorkshire and with the memory of good players being constantly harked back to. It makes the current situation even harder to face and it transmits to the current players.

Since falling from the premiership weve very rarely been able to handle expectation and pressure. The season we finished ninth generated a real buzz around hillsborough and we rode the wave of positivity, all of which came about of no one expecting anything.

[Hawkeye]

Since falling from the premiership weve very rarely been able to handle expectation and pressure. The season we finished ninth generated a real buzz around hillsborough and we rode the wave of positivity, all of which came about of no one expecting anything.

Good point.

Theres a lot to be said about the hillsborough atmosphere. Theres an air of expectation at the moment, and it seems to be having a negative effect. when he've been at our very best is when we go expecting nothing, and get something - like Newcastle.

There is an argument that we do well away from home, because we traditionally have the hardcore, die hard wednesdayites who will go and make 90 minutes of noise. At hillsborough, there are too many who are too quick to voice discontent.

Im not saying these players shouldnt be able to handle the pressure, its why they play football after all, but perhaps, in a slight way, we could help ourselves in the way we react too?

Some of my favourite moments at hillsborough have been when we have been losing, and yet the crowd have continually sang, bounced and generated an atmosphere totally on their own - and the players have often responded.

How many of us would prefer being told we are poo at work, and how many would prefer encouragement? the criticism should be left to Irvine to dish out, and then again on the forums. For 90 minutes, is it unfair, or too much to expect the fans to stay positive and try to encourage?

[Bluesteel]

Good point.

Theres a lot to be said about the hillsborough atmosphere. Theres an air of expectation at the moment, and it seems to be having a negative effect. when he've been at our very best is when we go expecting nothing, and get something - like Newcastle.

There is an argument that we do well away from home, because we traditionally have the hardcore, die hard wednesdayites who will go and make 90 minutes of noise. At hillsborough, there are too many who are too quick to voice discontent.

Im not saying these players shouldnt be able to handle the pressure, its why they play football after all, but perhaps, in a slight way, we could help ourselves in the way we react too?

Some of my favourite moments at hillsborough have been when we have been losing, and yet the crowd have continually sang, bounced and generated an atmosphere totally on their own - and the players have often responded.

How many of us would prefer being told we are poo at work, and how many would prefer encouragement? the criticism should be left to Irvine to dish out, and then again on the forums. For 90 minutes, is it unfair, or too much to expect the fans to stay positive and try to encourage?

I agree with this, it happened against newcastle too, we were gutted to go 2-1 down, it was almost as if we were all about to go quiet then we thought sod it, lets make some noise again.

But it was the occasion more than anything, I just get the impression that many people just cant be arsed any more, especially when its freezing cold (rather than those sunny afternoons when people have had a few beers and made a day of it). Its a difficult one because I get really pissed off too, but it has to be counter productive.

I just think that fans across the country that dont support a fallen "big club" are probably less likely to boo and get discontented so easily, its like a grievance that has built over the last ten years and now people are starting to get the impression its a bit hopeless, the total opposite of the summers optimism.

It works both ways and the players need to give the crowd something to cheer about, but when things arent going to plan at Wednesday the fan base doesnt half get nasty just like the Geordies up here in Newcastle.

[Guest Anglofile]

Ive been thinking recently, after attending and listening to games where hillsborough is pretty much dead, reading the general mood on forums etc that there is more to the whole problem of SWFC than the debt.

By the sounds of things, (and correct me if I'm wrong) we are told that the club is on an even keel making a very small amount of money with the debt put to one side to be paid off at a later date (albeit a yearly charge of 500k). The money we generate from attendances then goes towards the playing budget.

Therefore, does this debt only restrict us in the sense that we have to service it by 500k per year? Obviously its a bad situation but surely other clubs dont benefit from our average attendance which brings a great deal of money to our coffers, despite being pretty cack for the last ten years. Investment by the sounds of things still wouldnt provide us with money to pay transfer fees so it would still be working within the current structure of developing a wage budget of around £6.5 million in the first instance?

I personally think the biggest problem is who we are and our opinions of ourselves. Im proud to be a Wednesdayite, I love the club and Im proud of the players Ive watched in the past and our achievements. But I cant help but think that this is now holding us back, with the resulting discontent, booing, poor atmosphere, apathy etc.

Take Doncaster for example, a team higher in the league than us, a bit more money to spend and coming off the back of a win at Forest, they should be favourites. Yet when we lose, we still have that feeling of humiliation and embarrassment...because were SWFC and "we should be beating them".

Other local teams such as donny, barnsley and rotherham even when they play poorly, I doubt they often boo their players. But sections of our support do it because we think we need better than this. Ideally we would have better than this, but perhaps after ten long years its time for everyone to realise that the poisonous atmosphere that turns us against our own team in the time of need which is the biggest problem.

Ever hear the saying: It's better to be just poor rather than having been rich and then poor once again? It's like that with the Owls. You've had success before and were in the big show. You all know what it feels like. It's a terrible feeling not being there. Doncaster doesn't have that experience. Their supporters don't know any better.

I'm confident that once the finances are straightened out, the club will be back and stay back.

[Bluesteel]

Ever hear the saying: It's better to be just poor rather than having been rich and then poor once again? It's like that with the Owls. You've had success before and were in the big show. You all know what it feels like. It's a terrible feeling not being there. Doncaster doesn't have that experience. Their supporters don't know any better.

I'm confident that once the finances are straightened out, the club will be back and stay back.

Yeah, I suppose thats about right mate.

I think those terrible feelings might just be hitting an all time high though..possibly to the detriment to the clubs long term health unless something positive happens.

I hope youre right with your last sentence!

[Guest Crooky]

Yeah, I suppose thats about right mate.

I think those terrible feelings might just be hitting an all time high though..possibly to the detriment to the clubs long term health unless something positive happens.

I hope youre right with your last sentence!

I do also

But what evidnece does he have apart from his crystal ball

[Stokey]

This is my perspective on the whole situation - Sorry it's a bit of an essay.

I was born in 1991 so all I can remember from living memory of the Wednesday is sturggling, relegation battles and seeing us lose. With me being down south it took me 17 live games to see us win, and that was a dire game at Peterborough in 2003 with Shefki Kuqi scoring with our only chance of the game.

I don't have memories of Sheridan Nillson Hirst and Waddle and the glorious football we played in 93. I have memories of us in the Premiership losing to poor sides like Crystal Palace, Watford, Southampton and Wimbledon. The only positive from our Premiership years ha I experienced live was Paolo Di Canio's incredible composure and technique (see his brilliant goals against Barnsley, Everton and Southampton where he just effortlessly beats the defenders and takes it round the keeper without breaking a sweat).

All the bad performances and results from then was all worth it for the 3 play-off games in 2005. Not just for the victories in all three games but for experiencing the atmosphere of us fans. We were epic. Sanding in the uncovered stand all singing Hey Jude at Brentford in the rain at half-time. The atmosphere in Cardiff before the game. During the game, espiecally when we went 2-1 down and it looked like we had fallen at the last hurdle the chant of

"Sing your hearts out for the lads" was incredible. Even if we lost that game I would have been proud tobe an Owl there.

Us winning that game was special on so many levels, and was the perfect Birthday present for me (my birthday was the day before). With my record at Wednesday games I must have a goal difference of over 30 goals against us, including the 6-0 thrashing by Reading last year and a humiliating 4-0 iirc loss to Wrexham and a 4-1 loss to Hull and I'd go through another 8-10 years of crap, including relegation for another time like that.

The gist of this post is I don't have high expectations of us as a football team. I've already kind of given up hope that we will ever get back to the Premiership, but I don't care about that.

It breaks my heart when on the rare occasion I do get to a Wednesday game and the crowd is as bad as the football. For me Wednesday is about singing your hearts out for the lads in the blue and white stripes no matter what, and if they're letting us down and you don't feel like singing for them, then sing your heart out for the club itself for the whole ninety minutes. We used to be the best in the country for this imo. The last few years this has seemed to decline steadily.

I'm going to the Reading game on Saturday and I'm hoping we'll be in good voice and generate a cracking atmosphere whatever the result it's what being a Wednesday fan is about regardless of the result or performance.

[Guest totemowl]

I agree. My view is that too many fans have unrealistic short term expectations and expect all our players to be premiership class week in, week out. If any isn't they launch into stupid rants from row 32, walk out 20 minutes from the end, and generally undermine the gradual progress that we need to make to get to where we all want to be.

Going down to Hillsborough is to go to a place where a surprising number of individuals throw a tantrum, with the expectation that they'll get some benefit from it.

This is a significant contrast to Donny for instance, whose expectations and hopes are for limited improvement every year, and who achieve it every year despite their obvious limitations.

[danblakemore]

I do agree with a majority of what is being said here, but…

Personally I grew up watching us in the ‘good’ times. My first matches began in 82 and only suffered as a child with the minor blip under Big Ron. Even that didn’t feel so bad as we bounced straight back and won Man Utd at Wembley. Plus the bonus was we had a good team to watch, who also played their hearts out.

My father told me of the dark days of the 70’s and I always remember the Kaiserslautern game and my father telling me, this is as good as he has ever seen it and I must enjoy this as it may not get any better. Damn him for being right!

Now to today, I honestly think there is an apathy factor, but at the end of the day, a winning, trying team will be supported whatever division they are in, if the players play well, the fans will respond. At Hillsborough (even in the promotion year of league one) we didn’t play well, but for some miracle we managed to get into the play offs. People still moaned every week.

What I think we are crying out for, is two-three real grafters in the side, also the likes of players who gee the crowd, get them working for you. If your team cant win, at least put on a show.

The fans expect more and rightly so, as my friend always says ‘ I’ll cheer them if they can do something I cant’ Problem is, not one player in the last 5 years has been able too on a regular basis.

Its not a ‘we think we are bigger than you mentality’, It’s a give us something to cheer and we will one.

[Bluesteel]

This is my perspective on the whole situation - Sorry it's a bit of an essay.

I was born in 1991 so all I can remember from living memory of the Wednesday is sturggling, relegation battles and seeing us lose. With me being down south it took me 17 live games to see us win, and that was a dire game at Peterborough in 2003 with Shefki Kuqi scoring with our only chance of the game.

I don't have memories of Sheridan Nillson Hirst and Waddle and the glorious football we played in 93. I have memories of us in the Premiership losing to poor sides like Crystal Palace, Watford, Southampton and Wimbledon. The only positive from our Premiership years ha I experienced live was Paolo Di Canio's incredible composure and technique (see his brilliant goals against Barnsley, Everton and Southampton where he just effortlessly beats the defenders and takes it round the keeper without breaking a sweat).

All the bad performances and results from then was all worth it for the 3 play-off games in 2005. Not just for the victories in all three games but for experiencing the atmosphere of us fans. We were epic. Sanding in the uncovered stand all singing Hey Jude at Brentford in the rain at half-time. The atmosphere in Cardiff before the game. During the game, espiecally when we went 2-1 down and it looked like we had fallen at the last hurdle the chant of

"Sing your hearts out for the lads" was incredible. Even if we lost that game I would have been proud tobe an Owl there.

Us winning that game was special on so many levels, and was the perfect Birthday present for me (my birthday was the day before). With my record at Wednesday games I must have a goal difference of over 30 goals against us, including the 6-0 thrashing by Reading last year and a humiliating 4-0 iirc loss to Wrexham and a 4-1 loss to Hull and I'd go through another 8-10 years of crap, including relegation for another time like that.

The gist of this post is I don't have high expectations of us as a football team. I've already kind of given up hope that we will ever get back to the Premiership, but I don't care about that.

It breaks my heart when on the rare occasion I do get to a Wednesday game and the crowd is as bad as the football. For me Wednesday is about singing your hearts out for the lads in the blue and white stripes no matter what, and if they're letting us down and you don't feel like singing for them, then sing your heart out for the club itself for the whole ninety minutes. We used to be the best in the country for this imo. The last few years this has seemed to decline steadily.

I'm going to the Reading game on Saturday and I'm hoping we'll be in good voice and generate a cracking atmosphere whatever the result it's what being a Wednesday fan is about regardless of the result or performance.

Exactly mate, we were poor for most of the season but our crowds were amazing and the sense of unity was there. Now I fear that if we went down again it would be different, possibly even nasty.

Our away following is still incredible to be fair and our home crowd average is still pretty good IMO baring in mind the season were having. But its not a nice atmosphere, I hope we dont leave it too late to get behind them in their time of need, whether we think they deserve it or not.

[Bluesteel]

I do agree with a majority of what is being said here, but…

Personally I grew up watching us in the ‘good’ times. My first matches began in 82 and only suffered as a child with the minor blip under Big Ron. Even that didn’t feel so bad as we bounced straight back and won Man Utd at Wembley. Plus the bonus was we had a good team to watch, who also played their hearts out.

My father told me of the dark days of the 70’s and I always remember the Kaiserslautern game and my father telling me, this is as good as he has ever seen it and I must enjoy this as it may not get any better. Damn him for being right!

Now to today, I honestly think there is an apathy factor, but at the end of the day, a winning, trying team will be supported whatever division they are in, if the players play well, the fans will respond. At Hillsborough (even in the promotion year of league one) we didn’t play well, but for some miracle we managed to get into the play offs. People still moaned every week.

What I think we are crying out for, is two-three real grafters in the side, also the likes of players who gee the crowd, get them working for you. If your team cant win, at least put on a show.

The fans expect more and rightly so, as my friend always says ‘ I’ll cheer them if they can do something I cant’ Problem is, not one player in the last 5 years has been able too on a regular basis.

Its not a ‘we think we are bigger than you mentality’, It’s a give us something to cheer and we will one.

I instantly thought of JP Mcgovern

[Stokey]

I instantly thought of JP Mcgovern

He may not have been the best player to ever wear the blue and white, but he was exciting to watch, always seemed to create something. Sham ehe got injured when he did.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Stokey

[Guest Ripley Owl]

Ever hear the saying: It's better to be just poor rather than having been rich and then poor once again? It's like that with the Owls. You've had success before and were in the big show. You all know what it feels like. It's a terrible feeling not being there. Doncaster doesn't have that experience. Their supporters don't know any better.

I'm confident that once the finances are straightened out, the club will be back and stay back.

It's nice to hear somebody talking sense !

[tomhollywood]

I have decided that the booing, over expectations, moaning and lack of ability to see the bigger picture is due to quite a few fans being proper special.

Edited February 23, 2010 by tomhollywood

[icarver]

I agree with a lot of what's been said.

I also don't think enough attention has been paid to signing players who are thick skinned enough to deal with playing at Hillsbourough & less about their potential- think of the players who have done well- Graham Coughlan etc

[Bluesteel]

I agree with a lot of what's been said.

I also don't think enough attention has been paid to signing players who are thick skinned enough to deal with playing at Hillsbourough & less about their potential- think of the players who have done well- Graham Coughlan etc

Lloyd Owusu is a perfect example, I was really chuffed when we signed him but he was totally out of his depth playing in a big stadium for some reason.

The truth is the majority of players are going to find it tough and the ones who have the right mentality dont tend to stay here for very long

[Hawkeye]

In my opinion, its nothing but an excuse that players use.

However.

There is a lot to be said about the levels of unrealistic expectation levelled at players. A few years ago, we would have been within our rights to moan at De bilge, Sibon et al performing like absolute donkeys against the likes of Crewe and Palace. These were supposed premiership players, on premiership wages, and therefore we were within our rights to demand premiership levels of performance.

Now, we have players on lower championship level wages - and only lower level standard players are going to come to us for that money, and yet we expect them to win week in, week out. Maybe they are doing their best, but for a vocal some, it will never be enough - how can they win?

Every manager that comes to play against us has the same tactics - get amongst them, silence the crowd and they will get on the players backs. And we do it every single time.

The players have a responsibility to try. But how many people can honestly say they produce their best work under the same conditions iv described?

[Aingarth]

There is too much talk of booing and negativity. The booing on Saturday was from a minority, certainly no-one near me booed the team off although I did hear some. The overwhelming reaction of everyone near me was sheer depression - not because our 'once great team' was not performing as expected - but because it was performing like a newly formed Sunday league team that had never played together before. Long, long balls, at best with a 50% chance of going to our own player, mis-kicks, passes to the box with no-one reading them etc. Everyone around me was just completely depressed and although we tried to cheer the team on, we ended up in stunned silence - sheer disbelief that the team collectively and as individuals could play so badly - against very poor opposition. As Wednesday supporters we don't boo.

I've watched at Hillsborough since 1955 and this is as bad as I can remember in terms of football on the pitch - it's back to the mid '70s when we nearly went down to Division 4.