Issues on the kiosks

[owl-zat]

Hi David,Can I just ask why bottles of pop are so expensive at £1.80 when i'm guessing you can probably buy a crate of 24 for around £15 at the cash and carry and shops always seem to have them on offer where you can buy two bottles cheaper than what Wednesday sell one bottle for?I know Wednesday have to make a mark-up on items but at £1.80 you must be making at least 150% profit on each bottle?Why note sell them at £1 each so competing with the shops and stopping fans buying thier drinks away from Hillsborough and also with a nice simple price hopefully speeding up the service for some of the mathematically challeneged staff in the kiosks?

[Guest dtshoc]

Hi David,Can I just ask why bottles of pop are so expensive at £1.80 when i'm guessing you can probably buy a crate of 24 for around £15 at the cash and carry and shops always seem to have them on offer where you can buy two bottles cheaper than what Wednesday sell one bottle for?I know Wednesday have to make a mark-up on items but at £1.80 you must be making at least 150% profit on each bottle?Why note sell them at £1 each so competing with the shops and stopping fans buying thier drinks away from Hillsborough and also with a nice simple price hopefully speeding up the service for some of the mathematically challeneged staff in the kiosks?

Hi, and thanks very much for the question.Coke etc. is £1.60, £1.80 is what was charged last season.I know exactly what you are saying and where you’re coming from but there are various factors to consider.A crate of 24 is more that £15 but you’re not a million miles away. We have to pay the VAT on all goods so we get £1.39 for a bottle of coke. Coca cola deliver direct to us, it’s not really practical to pick goods up from the cash & carry, Coke are also very supportive in terms of branding and equipment, they will also be looking at fan initiatives to win tickets for various events etc. later on in the season.The way we budget is on sales and margin and in this case the cost price is divided into the net selling price to achieve the gross profit margin so for example, £0.84 a pie into net £1.91 would give us a 57% profit margin, most catering establishment’s budget for a GP of between 65-70% on food & 68-74% on drink.We are only open 25ish times in 10 months unlike the local shops / supermarkets so when setting our prices we have to consider this along with costs, the biggest one of which is staff, we have in excess of 100 staff all working a minimum of 4 hours on match days.We are fortunate to have a captive audience and what we sell and where is a balance. We don’t have enough facilities as it is on the north, kop & west and we sell lots of coke etc. so if we were to reduce the price further we would be committing financial harry carry by diluting a proven revenue stream. What we are doing, imho, is not ripping fans off like they have been in the past and we are offering a better choice all round of far better quality. As we are working to improve and extend our facilities that will ultimately lead to increased revenue, we can review our prices season by season and hopefully competitively charge what the fans don’t mind paying, I don’t think we are far off now and things can only get better.Thanks,David

[Supa Owls]

We are looking at mobile units that you place an ambient keg next to, connect up and the beer / lager is chilled as it goes through the cooler to the pump. There’s a cost attached to this and it’s a case of balancing this with projected sales, you’ve also got to consider if the unit went down - unhappy fans, loss of sales etc. Are you talking getting an outside company in to run the mobile units or the club forking out for the kit and running it themselfs ?? I use a similar system myself Dave and they are a solution, but they bring there own problems and given the choice of a poor quality draught pint or a properly chilled bottle i'd have the bottle everytime.with them been a mobile unit wouldn't it limit you to what size kegs you could run ?? small kegs can create a problem if your changing every two minutes when it comes to wastage.

[Guest dtshoc]

We are looking at mobile units that you place an ambient keg next to, connect up and the beer / lager is chilled as it goes through the cooler to the pump. There’s a cost attached to this and it’s a case of balancing this with projected sales, you’ve also got to consider if the unit went down - unhappy fans, loss of sales etc. Are you talking getting an outside company in to run the mobile units or the club forking out for the kit and running it themselfs ?? I use a similar system myself Dave and they are a solution, but they bring there own problems and given the choice of a poor quality draught pint or a properly chilled bottle i'd have the bottle everytime.with them been a mobile unit wouldn't it limit you to what size kegs you could run ?? small kegs can create a problem if your changing every two minutes when it comes to wastage.

Ourselves through Coors, exactly re: the problems and preferring bottles but I fully understand why the consumer wants draught.

[Supa Owls]

In my experience Dave the biggest problem with them is wastageSure we'd all like good quality draught beer available in all areas around the ground, but i'm sure we'd be the first to complain about been sold poor quality draught.Re. the Coke cost issue, isn't it a similar situation in most places ??? you know your hotels/local boozers e.t.c none of them can compete with the corner shop when it comes to pop/crisps

[Guest dtshoc]

In my experience Dave the biggest problem with them is wastageSure we'd all like good quality draught beer available in all areas around the ground, but i'm sure we'd be the first to complain about been sold poor quality draught.Re. the Coke cost issue, isn't it a similar situation in most places ??? you know your hotels/local boozers e.t.c none of them can compete with the corner shop when it comes to pop/crisps

Again, I agree and again I fully understand why fans think stuff should be cheaper............obviously we are here to make money but first and foremost we are here to provide a service to the fans coming to the main event and we want fans to be happy with what we do and not feel robbed.

[Supa Owls]

If the product and service is good enough, people will pay for it! factI honestly think the catering team since lee came on board have improved things ten fold, yea there's teething problems but at least the guys are out there working on them! unlike previous 'regimes'

[HOOTIE AND THE SHIT TU]

I keep getting charged differently.I've been having a Steak and Henderson's pie and lager at every game. Some games I have been charged £5.50, some games I have been charged £4.60. I've not made a fuss for the sake of 90p, but I thought I best bring it up.I agree with a previous poster, the pies cannot be breached with plastic spoon. But for gods sake don't change them, they are awesome, I just pick the bad boy up.

[Guest thetruthisoutthere]

Hi,

We've looked into vending machines a few times and tbh from a profit & logistical point of view are a no brainer.

The idea of vending in principle is a good one but bear in mind we are only open 25-30 times every 10 months and in order for them to be profitable we would have to sell 1000's of bottles of say, Coca Cola. The margins are not as good as selling from the kiosks direct as the vending companies take the lions share, some companies also try to get you to sign unrealistic contracts, there's no sale or return for example which would make them more attractive.

There are also security and health and safety issues to consider if they were on the concourses, also if they brake down during service or if they keep someone's money then we would have to wait for an engineer and in the short time frame we have to serve fans it's just not practical, plus we could have service interpupted by fans kicking off at staff behind the kiosks wanting their lost money back.

What we are doing, as on the Kop and North stand, is rolling out a plan for new kiosks, you will see more new additions throughout the season and all this adds up to a more efficient and better service and more revenue for the club.

Thanks for the post, we love to hear new ideas and are always open to suggestions to improve the operation.

Kind regards,

David.

Thanks for the reply David it's great to know we are listened to at last.

I agree there are problems with some crisps/chocolate bars getting stuck and causing problems with complaints.

And the coke profit margins you mention o.k. this makes sense but if the machines were owned and filled by us be could charge our own prices so that little statement holds no water or coke as it were (see what i did there)

I would suggest the answer is simply stick in the hot drinks machines (Tea, coffee, hot chocolate, soup) and maybe some of those pringles machines as they don't ever get stuck. We lose a fortune every winter in hot drinks an absolute fortune.

Please consider these points to counter what you have just told me.

1. Buying our own machines gives the full percentage benefits and we dont have to give away the lions share.

2. In some other responses on this thread you mention that staffing costs are an issue. Well with hot drinks machines there are no staffing costs, much in the same way we have moved over to online ticketing this is another winner as it is automated.

3. The answer to the health and safety issues is that other football stadiums position vending machines in the corners of concorses where there is no obstruction (the general rule seems to be if it doesnt obstruct anything they will let you put it there)

4. Modern vending machines are very very reliable especially the drinks ones, it is the bags of crisps that are a problem and chocolate bars on the old type machines. And i am not suggesting stock these.

5. Profit margins on hot drinks machines are monstrous especially when you fill them yourselves, we are only talking about powder, plastic and water here, the percentages are beyond belief. £10 - £15 IN POWDERED STOCK INCLUDING THE CUPS GENERATES HUNDREDS OF POUNDS WITH NO STAFFING COSTS.

6.The bit you mention about waiting for an engineer, well common practice is to give the customer in question there money back and turn the machine off, then get it fixed when the time is right. I never suggested stopping selling drinks trough the kiosks, my suggestion was to ease the pressure on them, Every now and then one may have to be turned off and a customer refunded. (This is no more different than writting off a little beer that comes through the pumps or tipping away a drink that is poured incorrectly) and engineers cost are negligable when it comes to maintenance. People make mistakes much more than machines and machines are cheaper to run.

7. Stock would never have to be thrown away as powdered items have a stock life of years, it doesnt matter that we are only open for 25 days a year.

I cannot believe that selling hot drinks through people is more cost effective than investing in some vending machines, i think it would be better to sell hot drinks through people and machines, surely the reasons i have pointed out above warrant a closer look.

At half time and before some games i see hundreds of people not getting served as the staff simply can only work as fast as the laws of physics will allow, and whilst i do concede and am very thankful for the effort put in by them all, and the club for putting extra units in, it still isnt the answer to dissmiss hot drinks vending machines altogether. There are definateley areas these should be installed especially when the profit margins in question are considered.

I have no idea who looked into it in the past but clearly the idea wasnt explored to it's full potential.

I would like to predict how much we are losing and yes i do admit it's all guestimating and based on no fair comparison or fact and also the sales that we might lose from the kiosks have to be taken into account, but i will have a conservative estimate that one machine could quite easily generate £100 per match

Considering that Hillsborough is the size it is, i would estimate around 20 machines should be used, thats £2000 per game x25 home games is a total of £50,000 per annum missed out on. Now considering the stock costs for such a figure would be well below £5,000 giving a profit per annum of around £45,000 could i please please please ask you to maybe at least trial a few of them, then if they prove to be a good move enhance to getting more in. Maybe just trial a few round the back of the KOP where there is eyons of space.

Now what if my low estimate is so wrong that it should be closer to £200 per game or 30 machines, all of a sudden we are talking about the kind of money that can make a serious difference to the club possibly over the £100,000 barrier, o.k. i could be over estimating by double but even if i have overshot by double we are still missing out on £25,000 per season.

The club has in recent months been willing to try a lot of new things to get cash into the bank account, i hope you will reconsider my suggestion, which would be to trial a small amount of machines 2,3, or 4 round the back of the kop, see the results they pick up until the end of the season and if they are a success expand it to other areas of the ground (Health and Safetey permitting of course)

Thanks in advance for the communication

P.S. your decision won't effect me i like the alcohol on the kop idea (top marks by the way) infact i love it, ive spent at least £12 every time since it was sanctioned. But my dad has been screaming out for a hot drink in the winter for years but he is too old to be bothered standing and queing up for the whole of the half time break. Im sure there are thousands more people in the same position as my dad.

Sincerely Carl

[edinburghowl]

Mine too, it's a deal.

Forgot to say thanks for the HP after last Saturday. My pie was magic!

[Guest thetruthisoutthere]

Before anyone asks yes i do go get him a drink every now and then but we dont always sit together, i was simply trying to make the point that there are many people that miss out on spending their hard earned for a lot of reasons.

[Guest dtshoc]

Thanks for the reply David it's great to know we are listened to at last.

I agree there are problems with some crisps/chocolate bars getting stuck and causing problems with complaints.

And the coke profit margins you mention o.k. this makes sense but if the machines were owned and filled by us be could charge our own prices so that little statement holds no water or coke as it were (see what i did there)

I would suggest the answer is simply stick in the hot drinks machines (Tea, coffee, hot chocolate, soup) and maybe some of those pringles machines as they don't ever get stuck. We lose a fortune every winter in hot drinks an absolute fortune.

Please consider these points to counter what you have just told me.

1. Buying our own machines gives the full percentage benefits and we dont have to give away the lions share.

2. In some other responses on this thread you mention that staffing costs are an issue. Well with hot drinks machines there are no staffing costs, much in the same way we have moved over to online ticketing this is another winner as it is automated.

3. The answer to the health and safety issues is that other football stadiums position vending machines in the corners of concorses where there is no obstruction (the general rule seems to be if it doesnt obstruct anything they will let you put it there)

4. Modern vending machines are very very reliable especially the drinks ones, it is the bags of crisps that are a problem and chocolate bars on the old type machines. And i am not suggesting stock these.

5. Profit margins on hot drinks machines are monstrous especially when you fill them yourselves, we are only talking about powder, plastic and water here, the percentages are beyond belief. £10 - £15 IN POWDERED STOCK INCLUDING THE CUPS GENERATES HUNDREDS OF POUNDS WITH NO STAFFING COSTS.

6.The bit you mention about waiting for an engineer, well common practice is to give the customer in question there money back and turn the machine off, then get it fixed when the time is right. I never suggested stopping selling drinks trough the kiosks, my suggestion was to ease the pressure on them, Every now and then one may have to be turned off and a customer refunded. (This is no more different than writting off a little beer that comes through the pumps or tipping away a drink that is poured incorrectly) and engineers cost are negligable when it comes to maintenance. People make mistakes much more than machines and machines are cheaper to run.

7. Stock would never have to be thrown away as powdered items have a stock life of years, it doesnt matter that we are only open for 25 days a year.

I cannot believe that selling hot drinks through people is more cost effective than investing in some vending machines, i think it would be better to sell hot drinks through people and machines, surely the reasons i have pointed out above warrant a closer look.

At half time and before some games i see hundreds of people not getting served as the staff simply can only work as fast as the laws of physics will allow, and whilst i do concede and am very thankful for the effort put in by them all, and the club for putting extra units in, it still isnt the answer to dissmiss hot drinks vending machines altogether. There are definateley areas these should be installed especially when the profit margins in question are considered.

I have no idea who looked into it in the past but clearly the idea wasnt explored to it's full potential.

I would like to predict how much we are losing and yes i do admit it's all guestimating and based on no fair comparison or fact and also the sales that we might lose from the kiosks have to be taken into account, but i will have a conservative estimate that one machine could quite easily generate £100 per match

Considering that Hillsborough is the size it is, i would estimate around 20 machines should be used, thats £2000 per game x25 home games is a total of £50,000 per annum missed out on. Now considering the stock costs for such a figure would be well below £5,000 giving a profit per annum of around £45,000 could i please please please ask you to maybe at least trial a few of them, then if they prove to be a good move enhance to getting more in. Maybe just trial a few round the back of the KOP where there is eyons of space.

Now what if my low estimate is so wrong that it should be closer to £200 per game or 30 machines, all of a sudden we are talking about the kind of money that can make a serious difference to the club possibly over the £100,000 barrier, o.k. i could be over estimating by double but even if i have overshot by double we are still missing out on £25,000 per season.

The club has in recent months been willing to try a lot of new things to get cash into the bank account, i hope you will reconsider my suggestion, which would be to trial a small amount of machines 2,3, or 4 round the back of the kop, see the results they pick up until the end of the season and if they are a success expand it to other areas of the ground (Health and Safetey permitting of course)

Thanks in advance for the communication

P.S. your decision won't effect me i like the alcohol on the kop idea (top marks by the way) infact i love it, ive spent at least £12 every time since it was sanctioned. But my dad has been screaming out for a hot drink in the winter for years but he is too old to be bothered standing and queing up for the whole of the half time break. Im sure there are thousands more people in the same position as my dad.

Sincerely Carl

Hi Craig,

I’ve looked into / had communication with and visited clubs that have used vending in the past, Arsenal, Man City, Bradford City & Sunderland as well as others. All of the clubs I’ve talked to trialled vending and ended up taking all the machines out as they were losing money hand over fist, some were on rental agreements and one outright purchase, this one ended up selling the machines back to the suppliers at a loss.

A quality vending machine costs between 3-4K so if we were to buy just 4 for example this would cost £12k minimum and we would have to sell 8000 units (without taking into account product cost & VAT) before we break even which is a tall order, we would still have to pay a maintenance and service agreement.

One of the biggest factors is location, the north concourses are too narrow, as with the west, the south is able to cope with demand as the kiosks here are by far the best designed which leaves the kop, you are right about room at the back but I would not be comfortable putting a vending machine outside being exposed to the elements and if we did we would simply not sell enough to make a profit. I share your concerns about fans not being able to buy a hot drink sometimes and this links directly to the bigger picture of rolling out new units which are very cost effective and allow us to serve other products that are in high demand too.

Kind regards,

David

[Guest thetruthisoutthere]

Hi Craig,

I’ve looked into / had communication with and visited clubs that have used vending in the past, Arsenal, Man City, Bradford City & Sunderland as well as others. All of the clubs I’ve talked to trialled vending and ended up taking all the machines out as they were losing money hand over fist, some were on rental agreements and one outright purchase, this one ended up selling the machines back to the suppliers at a loss.

A quality vending machine costs between 3-4K so if we were to buy just 4 for example this would cost £12k minimum and we would have to sell 8000 units (without taking into account product cost & VAT) before we break even which is a tall order, we would still have to pay a maintenance and service agreement.

One of the biggest factors is location, the north concourses are too narrow, as with the west, the south is able to cope with demand as the kiosks here are by far the best designed which leaves the kop, you are right about room at the back but I would not be comfortable putting a vending machine outside being exposed to the elements and if we did we would simply not sell enough to make a profit. I share your concerns about fans not being able to buy a hot drink sometimes and this links directly to the bigger picture of rolling out new units which are very cost effective and allow us to serve other products that are in high demand too.

Kind regards,

David

Just so we are clear, because i would hate for anyone to think I had'nt researched it correctly before i put forward the suggestion forward. The real cost of them is as is laid out below.

renting them costs £11.99 a week http://www.vendingmachinesltd.co.uk/hotdrinkmachines.html

are you suggesting they would make a loss when this is all they cost to rent ?

buying them costs £1500 http://www.vendtrade.co.uk/specialoffers.html and includes start up free stock (1200 drinks)

the free stock they give you pays for the machine. from then on we are laughing

buying refurbished is £1000 http://www.vendtrade.co.uk/index.html

not sure this would be a good idea though

The 3-4 k you suggested would be for a double banked snacks machine and i never suggested getting them in. In fact the highest priced machine i can find still falls well short of 4k.

The only reason the south stand kiosks manage is because there are only 3 to 4 thousand people in the south stand. wait till it gets fuller on big matchdays and see how inadequate they are then. Big crowd in the south stand = meltdown just like every other area of Hillsborough

The kop is almost half empty and still they cant serve us at half time

I dont see why you would have to sign any maintenance agreement, it would be Wednesdays machine with a 2 year warranty and to be honest engineers call outs ordered as and when needed are well below £100 and parts are very cheap why on earth would you want to sign a maintenance agreement costing significantly more than this each and every year the mind boggles.

A simple shelter construction would be adequate to house them round the back of the KOP not to the standards of the beer kiosk but you get the idea.

The size of them is

6ft tall, less than 2ft 1 inch wide, and 2ft 3 inch deep

it has been a while since i was on the north but i was of the opinion they werent that strapped for space.

The clubs you mentioned must have signed stupid maintenance agreements, silly rental terms, paid 3 times the value when buying, and got snacks machines in as well, and probably overpaid for the stock

I think it is important to note that there is no rush to get the purchase cost back from these machines within a few weeks, they only cost £1500 each there is no rush at all, one machine ticking over at even a small amount 100 sales per match still serves it's purpose (it relieves pressure on the kiosks staff, freeing them up to sell other things) and over the space of a season generates additional profit.

Can i ask exactly what your roll is at Sheffield Wednesday David (job title, duties etc)

I still maintain they are a good idea and should be at least trialled on a small scale before we simply say "well other clubs could'nt make them work so we can't either"

2 on the KOP maybe

Using those other clubs as a model is irrelevant as i am proposing a different set of machines selling for primarily different reasons and for the most part installed and bought a different way i.e. bought not rented.

CARL

[Guest dtshoc]

Just so we are clear, because i would hate for anyone to think I had'nt researched it correctly before i put forward the suggestion forward. The real cost of them is as is laid out below.

renting them costs £11.99 a week http://www.vendingmachinesltd.co.uk/hotdrinkmachines.html

are you suggesting they would make a loss when this is all they cost to rent ?

'from' £11.99 per week, this has been sold to us before and normally comes with a minimum rental term (as demonstrated on the 3rd link - £999.99 or £12.99 for 3 years)

buying them costs £1500 http://www.vendtrade.co.uk/specialoffers.html and includes start up free stock (1200 drinks)

the free stock they give you pays for the machine. from then on we are laughing

buying refurbished is £1000 http://www.vendtrade.co.uk/index.html

not sure this would be a good idea though

The 3-4 k you suggested would be for a double banked snacks machine and i never suggested getting them in. In fact the highest priced machine i can find still falls well short of 4k.

The only reason the south stand kiosks manage is because there are only 3 to 4 thousand people in the south stand. wait till it gets fuller on big matchdays and see how inadequate they are then. Big crowd in the south stand = meltdown just like every other area of Hillsborough.

To be fair for the Barnsley fixture we had over 5,000 fans and did not recieve any complaints.

The kop is almost half empty and still they cant serve us at half time

The kop has been averaging over 7,000 fans this season and is the least equipped to deal with the demand, that's why we have and are looking at new units being rolled out, we are concentrating on avenues that we know will generate revenue, the new beer bar for example, rather than trial something that may not work, i.e - vending machines. To give you another example, just this week the maintenance team have built us a new beer bar for no cost and we are confident it will generate in excess of £1k in sales.

I dont see why you would have to sign any maintenance agreement, it would be Wednesdays machine with a 2 year warranty and to be honest engineers call outs ordered as and when needed are well below £100 and parts are very cheap why on earth would you want to sign a maintenance agreement costing significantly more than this each and every year the mind boggles.

A maintenance agreement is recommended with all equipment by the suppliers so that failure is minimised, something we could not afford to let happen with the small time frames we have to operate. A vending machine is a risk so the decision to sign any agrrement would, like a lot of factors regadring kiosks, be a balance.

A simple shelter construction would be adequate to house them round the back of the KOP not to the standards of the beer kiosk but you get the idea.

Would be an option but one very important factor to consider is they have to be plumbed in, this might be a struggle on the back Kop wall.

The size of them is

6ft tall, less than 2ft 1 inch wide, and 2ft 3 inch deep

it has been a while since i was on the north but i was of the opinion they werent that strapped for space.

The Safety advisory group would not permit vending machines on the North stand concourses.

The clubs you mentioned must have signed stupid maintenance agreements, silly rental terms, paid 3 times the value when buying, and got snacks machines in as well, and probably overpaid for the stock.

Don't know the exact detail of all the deals but the feedback I got was not good.

I think it is important to note that there is no rush to get the purchase cost back from these machines within a few weeks, they only cost £1500 each there is no rush at all, one machine ticking over at even a small amount 100 sales per match still serves it's purpose (it relieves pressure on the kiosks staff, freeing them up to sell other things) and over the space of a season generates additional profit.

I can see your point but the calculations done have dictated otherwise.

Can i ask exactly what your roll is at Sheffield Wednesday David (job title, duties etc)

Not very happy about this to be honest and I could take what you are asking several ways. I've come on here to try and help where I and we as a catering team can. If someone comes up with ideas or suggestions then be assured that if we can make it happen we will.

I still maintain they are a good idea and should be at least trialled on a small scale before we simply say "well other clubs could'nt make them work so we can't either"

As above.

2 on the KOP maybe

As above.

Using those other clubs as a model is irrelevant as i am proposing a different set of machines selling for primarily different reasons and for the most part installed and bought a different way i.e. bought not rented.

As mentioned above we are spending money where we can on proven revenue streams, unfortunately we are not in a position to trial high cost / risk initiatives.

Thanks,

David

[DeeJayOne]

I think it's obvious that this has been looked into in depth and continues to be looked at where possible - and that has been fully demonstrated by the depth of knowledge shown by David. There are a number of considerations when installing such facilities into the stadium that also have to be balanced with cost implications in installation and maintenance as well as being aware of the fact that footfall isn't huge due to the small number of games that those areas of the stadium are open each year (not to mention the input that the Safety Advisory Group have regarding anything installed directly into the stadium).The line of questoning towards the end of this thread does seem a little aggressive and dismissive of his previous responses - not sure if that is purposeful or not, but that is the impression I have got and, from what he has put, perhaps the impression that David has got.Managers and staff from Sheffield Wednesday are encouraged to come onto Owlstalk and the other forums so that they can speak directly to customers and answer queries, but in return I think that people need to be mindful of the way they put the questions and their own responses beyond that. Remember, it is encouraged for them to come on but not mandatory and is generally done in their spare time (breaks, lunch, etc) due to how busy people at the club are - I would ask for a little respect for the club staff here or they may simply stop using it.A lot of good ideas have come from the forums and from supporters in general and where possible the club will fully research and implement those good ideas. Sometimes it's not possible and I think David has given plentiful reasoning why on this occasion. I'm not sure the questioning beyond those responses are necessarily appropriate?

[Guest thetruthisoutthere]

I think it's obvious that this has been looked into in depth and continues to be looked at where possible - and that has been fully demonstrated by the depth of knowledge shown by David.

There are a number of considerations when installing such facilities into the stadium that also have to be balanced with cost implications in installation and maintenance as well as being aware of the fact that footfall isn't huge due to the small number of games that those areas of the stadium are open each year (not to mention the input that the Safety Advisory Group have regarding anything installed directly into the stadium).

The line of questoning towards the end of this thread does seem a little aggressive and dismissive of his previous responses - not sure if that is purposeful or not, but that is the impression I have got and, from what he has put, perhaps the impression that David has got.

Managers and staff from Sheffield Wednesday are encouraged to come onto Owlstalk and the other forums so that they can speak directly to customers and answer queries, but in return I think that people need to be mindful of the way they put the questions and their own responses beyond that.

Remember, it is encouraged for them to come on but not mandatory and is generally done in their spare time (breaks, lunch, etc) due to how busy people at the club are - I would ask for a little respect for the club staff here or they may simply stop using it.

A lot of good ideas have come from the forums and from supporters in general and where possible the club will fully research and implement those good ideas. Sometimes it's not possible and I think David has given plentiful reasoning why on this occasion. I'm not sure the questioning beyond those responses are necessarily appropriate?

I only asked him what his role was and his job title and duties. I don't think that is too much to ask ? But the reply came back

"Not very happy about this to be honest and I could take what you are asking several ways. I've come on here to try and help where I and we as a catering team can. If someone comes up with ideas or suggestions then be assured that if we can make it happen we will."

Notice the deflection here and not really an answer

I would have thought it was obvious why i asked him his role but i will spell it out more clearly in the hope that i might get a clear and precise answer

1st of all i must stress that i am of the strong opinion that "were all wednesday arent we" and i never meant to upset David, THE LAST THING I WOULD WANT TO ENCOURAGE IS BAD FEELING.

However i asked for clarification as to what his roll is, because i firmly believe he is wrong about the strength these machines could have for the benefit of Sheffield Wednesday.

It has become clear that myself and David will just have to agree to diss-agree.

But the main point of me asking for his title and roll is that i want to take the issue further, it's simply my opinion that David has made a mistake and as such i would like to put the whole subject to his immediate superior/supervisor/manager etc. including this whole thread. If any of us get sold a dodgey dvd at Asda we take it back and ask to see the management (true?)

He clearly has researched it to some degree, but very incorrectly with estimates of £4,000 for machines when they are in actual fact £1,500 for example. It was not just this point that concerned me, there are many other points he raises that looked like phrases and statements designed only to deflect the issue, rather than engage the questions/suggestions.

Towards the end of his last post David says "unfortunately we are not in a position to trial high cost / risk initiatives." well this is another example of coming up with statements designed to deflect the issue when there is no substance his statement.

Trialling these things is not high cost and is certainly not high risk (£3000 for 2 machines)

I don't see how they can be high risk when they maintain over 50% of there resell value in the first 6 months, plus whatever we made from them while they were being trialled we would obviously pocket as well as the resell value of the machines.

In short there is no "high cost" and extremeley little "risk" especially when balanced against the possible benefits.

I am a person that when i think i have seen an injustice i stand up and i make myself heard, I would say that in this instance i am merely a concerned customer and i think i should be addressed as such.

I would prefer an answer from David as to what his role is so i can accurateley address his imediate superiors, but it matters not, i shall be forwarding the whole issue to the club anyway.

Now if it turns out that David is in fact the head guy in charge of catering he can do us all a favour by letting me know so that i don't go wasting anyones time at the club, after all if he is the CHIEF so to speak there is no point in me excercising my keyboard anymore regarding this issue.

To be honest even if he is the CHIEF i will probably push the figures in the hands of John Rutherford and see what stadium operations think about it.

Yours sincerely Carl

[DeeJayOne]

Sorry Carl, I wasn't having a go as such, just pointing out that your line of question and tone was coming across as accusational, intimidatory and inappropriate - in my opinion.David is indeed the Head of Catering and Hospitality. I would like to point out that the suggestion has been made and investigated a number of times and indeed that David has researched it in depth and with our peers - I've personally seen evidence of this. There are a number of reasons given for not having vending machines at the moment in this thread and I thought that would be sufficient for the thread in itself.David is not using any phrases to deflect the issue, in my opinion. He is going above and beyond his normal duty and engaging supporters on an online forum; dealing with and explaining as much as possible about any concerns that are raised and acting on any suggestions or feedback that comes forward (and trust me, he does act on the feedback recieved - again I have personally witnessed this.If you do want us to take a look at your research, then please do forward it on to us (PM me for details).

[Guest thetruthisoutthere]

Sorry Carl, I wasn't having a go as such, just pointing out that your line of question and tone was coming across as accusational, intimidatory and inappropriate - in my opinion.David is indeed the Head of Catering and Hospitality. I would like to point out that the suggestion has been made and investigated a number of times and indeed that David has researched it in depth and with our peers - I've personally seen evidence of this. There are a number of reasons given for not having vending machines at the moment in this thread and I thought that would be sufficient for the thread in itself.David is not using any phrases to deflect the issue, in my opinion. He is going above and beyond his normal duty and engaging supporters on an online forum; dealing with and explaining as much as possible about any concerns that are raised and acting on any suggestions or feedback that comes forward (and trust me, he does act on the feedback recieved - again I have personally witnessed this.If you do want us to take a look at your research, then please do forward it on to us (PM me for details).

Hi, i never meant it to come accross that way, although after re-reading it i wish i had worded some things differently. I put my direct approach down to having to get aggressive with several other posters that were attacking our chaiman on another site (on reflection i should have sat back and regrouped before i got into another discusion, (i was still in a bad mood from defending our chairman from the idiots)Clearly the issue has been researched and the decision has been made, i have to say that my research, math, and reasoning come to the exact opposite conclusion to Davids. I find it hard to understand how we could both come to such different conclusions.I will PM you for some email detials, thankyou for the offer and assistance.I am going to forward the same information i send you and David to various other people at the club as well, might be a few days though ive got a million invoices and tax issues to clear up with my business before i can find the time, but i will get it done by sat at the latest.Yours sincerely Carl

[Mr Farrell]

Is Carl a vending machine salesman ?

[Supa Owls]

I value Davids input into this section and it's great to see him engage with fans over there concerns and ideas, i would imagine he does this in his spare time and is not duty bound to do it at all so i think a little thanks and respect to the guy could be in order, On the subject of vending machines..... can you just see groups of punters kicking three bells out of said machine when it's robbed a quid from them ???? and shouting and screaming about who to speak to about it ?? while the club try and get hold of an engineer The machines all need electrical installation and plumbing in the case of hot drinks machines, would this not be further expense to the club ??? thats after it's been decided wether it's even possible in the Kops case (which i doubt)We've all seen the improvements dave and his guys have made down there, and are continuing to make! so would it not be a better idea to concentrate whatever finance may be available into the outlets already in place that are guaranteed revenue for the club.