Young Owls U13's

[Guest boro owl]

What is the point of leagues for young kids?

It's not hard to get a winning team of kids together - even if they aren't good players.

I really thought we had moved on from that stuff

you need to move with the times my friend !

Ive got two lads both involved with junior football and monday morning thats all they talk about win or lose,

along with their pals.

There is nothing wrong with having a winning mentality. Its what happens in life like it or not.

As for picking a winning team out of bad players your obviously in the wrong job.

[scram]

I've probably been involved in more youth football, youth player development, youth coach education etc - than most people.

Moving with the times isn't going back to emphasising the importance of the winning when trying to develop young players.

If results are the way forward - why did academies scrap league tables for all but u18's years ago ?

Why haven't they gone back to this visonary system?

[Guest boro owl]

I've probably been involved in more youth football, youth player development, youth coach education etc - than most people.

Moving with the times isn't going back to emphasising the importance of the winning when trying to develop young players.

If results are the way forward - why did academies scrap league tables for all but u18's years ago ?

Why haven't they gone back to this visonary system?

They kind of controdict themselves with the scrapping of the leagues, because acadamy sides seem to consist

of all big lads for their ages in order to win games. Lads have gone to academies from our team and been told they tick all the boxes but are to small. If thats the case why not stick with them if results are not important.

I appreciate what your saying about enjoying their football and that is the most important thing at this age. But all kids like to win even if its two lads kicking a ball into a dust bin. Its not a bad thing to learn tha winning is not the be all and end all, there,s always next week

[scram]

TBH mate i've been involved in academy football for 10 years and the "big strong kid" thing is a myth for the most part - it's because academies are dedicated to developing players - not winning football matches.

Some academies - the more visionary - break the younger age group games up into much smaller games - 4 and 3 a-side and maybe have 4-5 teams each then play mini-tournaments where all the teams play each other - the games are high scoring - nobody keeps check of the score and all games finish with a penalty shoot-out - completely removes the emphasis from winning/losing and as there are no leagues nobody gets any perspective of which teams might be "better" than others.

As soon as you introduce official rankings (ie leagues) the emphasis shifts - and usually it's the parents who drive it and when winning becomes the focus player development suffers.

Let me give you a little example...

A few days ago i saw an u10 professional academy team take on an u10 boys team from a local league - the local team are a successful team who really fancy themselves - or rather their coach does....

It was all for football-in-the-community purposes - the game was played in 5 x 10 minute sections.

Firstly the local team looked at least 2 years older - they were that much bigger - they were also evidently stronger.

In the first period the local team went 1-0 ahead thanks to a battering ram of a forward who just mowed down everything in his path - their tactic was long hoofs forward and chase.

The academy team were told they had to play out at all times - the keeper wasn't allowed to kick the ball and they had to keep playing their football and not worry about the score.

The 2nd sector was more even with the academy team scoring a couple - but by now it was evident that the much higher skill factor of the academy boys was coming to the fore as they were just running rings round the other team

From the 3rd period on it was just completely one-sided as the academy team continued to just pass the ball and keep the other chasing shadows - last period the academy boys could just pull out their range of tricks and show off a little with much greater technique.

Despite the huge gulf in class the final score was something like 4-2 to the academy - but the acadmey team was full of bloody good footballers who could play football - the other team didn't have one player who looked like they could compete at the higher level of the academy boys - but their strength and physicality made them competitive and apparently they have cupboards full of medals.

As i said it's not difficult to create a winning kids tam with poor standard footballers - because physicality can often win out

Remove the incentive of fvckwitted adults to just win games and then player development becomes the focus.

[Guest boro owl]

TBH mate i've been involved in academy football for 10 years and the "big strong kid" thing is a myth for the most part - it's because academies are dedicated to developing players - not winning football matches.

Some academies - the more visionary - break the younger age group games up into much smaller games - 4 and 3 a-side and maybe have 4-5 teams each then play mini-tournaments where all the teams play each other - the games are high scoring - nobody keeps check of the score and all games finish with a penalty shoot-out - completely removes the emphasis from winning/losing and as there are no leagues nobody gets any perspective of which teams might be "better" than others.

As soon as you introduce official rankings (ie leagues) the emphasis shifts - and usually it's the parents who drive it and when winning becomes the focus player development suffers.

Let me give you a little example...

A few days ago i saw an u10 professional academy team take on an u10 boys team from a local league - the local team are a successful team who really fancy themselves - or rather their coach does....

It was all for football-in-the-community purposes - the game was played in 5 x 10 minute sections.

Firstly the local team looked at least 2 years older - they were that much bigger - they were also evidently stronger.

In the first period the local team went 1-0 ahead thanks to a battering ram of a forward who just mowed down everything in his path - their tactic was long hoofs forward and chase.

The academy team were told they had to play out at all times - the keeper wasn't allowed to kick the ball and they had to keep playing their football and not worry about the score.

The 2nd sector was more even with the academy team scoring a couple - but by now it was evident that the much higher skill factor of the academy boys was coming to the fore as they were just running rings round the other team

From the 3rd period on it was just completely one-sided as the academy team continued to just pass the ball and keep the other chasing shadows - last period the academy boys could just pull out their range of tricks and show off a little with much greater technique.

Despite the huge gulf in class the final score was something like 4-2 to the academy - but the acadmey team was full of bloody good footballers who could play football - the other team didn't have one player who looked like they could compete at the higher level of the academy boys - but their strength and physicality made them competitive and apparently they have cupboards full of medals.

As i said it's not difficult to create a winning kids tam with poor standard footballers - because physicality can often win out

Remove the incentive of fvckwitted adults to just win games and then player development becomes the focus.

So what your saying then is that only acadamy involved people can get the best out of young players !!!!!!

I dont think so.

We have a guy managing our u13s team who has a huge amount of experience with young players.

I would,nt like to say how long he,s being doing the job in fear of upsetting him.

My lad has been under his management along with two coaches that give him a helping hand for 4 seasons.

The football that these lads play is second to none.

like all teams they have good performances and some not so good.

He treats them all the same, and never raises his voice to any of them.

You seem to come across to me as though you know it all and you,ve made the grade because you,ve been involved in the acadamy set up.

This man actually turned that oppurtunity down. I may stand corrected on that but i think that is true.

Can i go back to a point in your reply as to the acadamy team playing out there tricks to over come the opposition ?

Do you not think that is more demoralising than the result at the end of the game for the other team to take.

Our lads play the game as it should be played (no fancy stuff) and give three cheers to the opposition, win or lose.

[ceders123]

So what your saying then is that only acadamy involved people can get the best out of young players !!!!!!

I dont think so.

We have a guy managing our u13s team who has a huge amount of experience with young players.

I would,nt like to say how long he,s being doing the job in fear of upsetting him.

My lad has been under his management along with two coaches that give him a helping hand for 4 seasons.

The football that these lads play is second to none.

like all teams they have good performances and some not so good.

He treats them all the same, and never raises his voice to any of them.

You seem to come across to me as though you know it all and you,ve made the grade because you,ve been involved in the acadamy set up.

This man actually turned that oppurtunity down. I may stand corrected on that but i think that is true.

Can i go back to a point in your reply as to the acadamy team playing out there tricks to over come the opposition ?

Do you not think that is more demoralising than the result at the end of the game for the other team to take.

Our lads play the game as it should be played (no fancy stuff) and give three cheers to the opposition, win or lose.

I don't think that was what scram was saying.

I know a young lass, 14,(yeah i know, girls football) her team plays 35 minute halfs, 11 a side on a full size pitch and in their last game(a cup final) they didn't have any subs. 2 players got injured but had to carry on. They got beat 6 -1. They were gutted.

Maybe ive missed the point of the thread but its not right and wont make, in this case, any better young girl football players.

Sorry but whats that about. They shouldn't be doing that. Should they?

Edited April 12, 2009 by ceders123

[scram]

So what your saying then is that only acadamy involved people can get the best out of young players !!!!!!

Yes - i have said that ?!?!?!?!.....

And now you're going to show where i have said that

Good luck!

We have a guy managing our u13s team who has a huge amount of experience with young players.

I would,nt like to say how long he,s being doing the job in fear of upsetting him.

He might be the greatest youth coach in the history of the game - i have no idea so can't comment

My lad has been under his management along with two coaches that give him a helping hand for 4 seasons.

The football that these lads play is second to none.

Compared to who/what?

You seem to come across to me as though you know it all and you,ve made the grade because you,ve been involved in the acadamy set up.

Thanks for that - don't think i've made the grade at all - wouldn't know what "the grade" is - but i can hold my own with world renowned people in the game so i think i might have something - if not much - but something....

Can i go back to a point in your reply as to the acadamy team playing out there tricks to over come the opposition ?

Do you not think that is more demoralising than the result at the end of the game for the other team to take.

No - they are superb young footballers who after being battered by bigger, stronger kids stuck with it and found themsleves the time and space in which to display their brilliant individual skills - player development - what it's all about - getting great youngsters to express themselves and display some awesome skills - not just win games.

Our lads play the game as it should be played (no fancy stuff) and give three cheers to the opposition, win or lose.

How should the game be played?

What is "fancy stuff"?

You don't mean talent and exceptional football skill do you?

[Guest boro owl]

Thanks for that - don't think i've made the grade at all - wouldn't know what "the grade" is - but i can hold my own with world renowned people in the game so i think i might have something - if not much - but something....

World renowned people ? Im suprised at that.

A bit of imformation for you scram seeing as your out of touch with the league systems in sheffield junior football.

Sheffield and district junior sunday league (the largest junior league in Europe for boys and girls playing football) starts at under 7s and goes up to under 16s. I reckon thats about 2000 players all eager for sunday morning to come round, not to mention training. try telling them that they should,nt have league tables. Its a GAME and any game has a winner and a loser. They may be down for a couple of hours and then its forgot. It makes winning one even better.

[scram]

World renowned people ? Im suprised at that.

Fair enough

A bit of imformation for you scram seeing as your out of touch with the league systems in sheffield junior football.

Sheffield and district junior sunday league (the largest junior league in Europe for boys and girls playing football) starts at under 7s and goes up to under 16s. I reckon thats about 2000 players all eager for sunday morning to come round, not to mention training. try telling them that they should,nt have league tables. Its a GAME and any game has a winner and a loser. They may be down for a couple of hours and then its forgot. It makes winning one even better.

I do feel very strongly about the quality of coaching available to kids - nevermind the emphasis of that coaching - let's just leave that there...

Obviously we have differing views and aren't going to agree - so lets agree to disagree

[DesWalker]

Scram...you're out of touch mate.

[scram]

So it would seem....

[lincolnowl]

So it would seem....

You're not mate..it's our county system - absolute disgrace.

I coach now at a well reknowned club in the area, my age group is the lowest ranked team in our club (C division). We have won prmotion this year so will be on apr with some of our club 'peers' - but the emphasis put on being in the top two devisions and reputation of the club is horrendous. In terms of qaulity of football, our lads try to pass it, do the right things even at the cost of goals in either net.

But we have suppled over half a doaen lads to the local academies over the last 4 years - that for me is the barometer of success.

Until parents/supporters/coaches learn to behave properly - and I fear some of the above is a shameful relection of current attitidues - we won't get it right.

[scram]

Keep up the good work mate - keep getting the lads focusing on the important as[ects of the game to help them develop as players.

And believe me when a lad takes to the pitch in a professional game that you've had a hand in developing - in beats a million peurile boasts about winning nothing leagues and cups with a set of big u12's...

[feather]

Keep up the good work mate - keep getting the lads focusing on the important as[ects of the game to help them develop as players.

And believe me when a lad takes to the pitch in a professional game that you've had a hand in developing - in beats a million peurile boasts about winning nothing leagues and cups with a set of big u12's...

FFS

[scram]

FFS

That's the way to endender debate isn't it....

Why bother posting if you've nothing to add?

[malek]

Bravo, mate !

[SWFCLee]

Scram, no one has said it is all about winning. This started off as praise for a set of kids who had, by playing football the right way come top of their league this season.

Is there any harm in playing the right way and actually winning? If you came to watch the team in question you would see that they don't display an attitude which says winning is the be all and end all.

I would like to wish the U13 all the best tomorrow in their quest for a 100% league record. If they don't then never mind.

For anyone interested it is 11am kick off v Heeley Boys at Northern Avenue, Arbourthorne, S2 (next to the Vulcan). Scram you are welcome if you are not masterminding Englands next World Cup win.

[scram]

Scram, no one has said it is all about winning. This started off as praise for a set of kids who had, by playing football the right way come top of their league this season.

Is there any harm in playing the right way and actually winning? If you came to watch the team in question you would see that they don't display an attitude which says winning is the be all and end all.

I would like to wish the U13 all the best tomorrow in their quest for a 100% league record. If they don't then never mind.

For anyone interested it is 11am kick off v Heeley Boys at Northern Avenue, Arbourthorne, S2 (next to the Vulcan). Scram you are welcome if you are not masterminding Englands next World Cup win.

Thanks

You'll probably notice i don't patronise like you as you have done to me - but anyway....

The reason results and leagues were removed from official stats in youth football was because when you have rankings it shifts the emphasis - and sadly it is often the parents that drive this.

For every team that remains unbeaten there are teams that get thrashed every week - so it's swings and roundabouts

You are the 2nd persona that has mentioned playing "in the right way" - what does that mean?

Are you like the previous posted that doesn't seem to think playing the "right way" includes individual expression of talent?

For me youth football is all about individual talent - you can learn tactics in 5 minutes at 16+ - if at that age you can't control a ball then you've no chance - which is why the emphasis should be on the individual and not the team in youth football.

That's why official, recorded rankings aren't helpful.

Let me give you another example - week before last i was talking to a guy who's lad had been offered a trial with an academy - he is 10

His dad runs a local team - i said to him that it was late in the season for a trial with so little of it left etc - he actually said - and i still can't believe it - that he had been invited to trial a couple of months earlier but the team he runs was in a cup semi-final and his lad is the star striker so he wouldn't let him take up his trial til the semi-final had been played.

Unreal!

It's the mentality that prevails though i'm afraid - i've seen it for years and years and was delighted when the FA switched to small-sided games, appropriate pitch/goal sizes for age groups - emphasis on fun and skill as opposed to tactics, rules and winning

I was also ery pleased when the FA started to do away with league tables for younger ages - but the parents have won out and many counties have reintroduced them - or never complied in the first place.

As i said - it's easy to win youth football matches - and there doesn't really need to be talented players in the team - because physical attributes will often rule at that age.

That's why the emphasis should be on the individual and not the team.

Edited April 18, 2009 by scram

[SWFCLee]

I always thought football was a team game. I am obviously mistaken.

[malek]

Person I know is a female basketball coach.

He was training young girls and their finished last in their age group that was quite a shame for town with such a man/woman basketball tradition. He was getting roasted everywhere claiming that knows nothing of the sport, that his players are untalented, etc, etc...

However, he stood by his players and just few years later his team, made up of 80% of that same players that ended up last in regional under-age championship were best team in the country, winning The Championship and playing in the cup final.

My point there - is that quite few coaches out there will pick youngsters who developed bit quicker (are taller, stronger, quicker right now) regardless of talent, so they could say how they won something, knowing full well that those boys will never get even close to playing "proper" football, possibly hindering progress of someone who might turn out to be a "real" talent.