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SAG and SYP own goal?


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I cannot for the life of me understand why the club has not insisted on a face to face meeting with the key members of SAG (i.e. representatives, of the police, ambulance, fire brigade and the Council). That way they could make them explain and attempt to justify their decisions.  If the club considered that the decisions were not justified after receiving an explanation, I'm sure there would be legal remedies open to them that they could pursue.

 

There is definitely an issue here about restraint of trade, - not to mention the idiocy of creating a situation where there will be Rangers fans in all parts of the stadium for this friendly.  I fully expect that the game will pass off peacefully as there is no antagonism between Wednesday and Rangers fans, but nevertheless, any trouble will certainly be the responsibility of SAG.

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Just now, Kevan said:

I cannot for the life of me understand why the club has not insisted on a face to face meeting with the key members of SAG (i.e. representatives, of the police, ambulance, fire brigade and the Council). That way they could make them explain and attempt to justify their decisions.  If the club considered that the decisions were not justified after receiving an explanation, I'm sure there would be legal remedies open to them that they could pursue.

 

There is definitely an issue here about restraint of trade, - not to mention the idiocy of creating a situation where there will be Rangers fans in all parts of the stadium for this friendly.  I fully expect that the game will pass off peacefully as there is no antagonism between Wednesday and Rangers fans, but nevertheless, any trouble will certainly be the responsibility of SAG.

You are aware that the club, as safety certificate holders, are an integral member of SAG?

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Just now, casbahowl said:

But clearly have little or no clout !

It's not a question of clout within the group.

At the SAG meetings,recommendations are made based on the various safety regulations. and it is up to the club (as the safety certificate holders) and Sheffield City Council (as the licensing authority) to accept them or not.

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1 minute ago, cactus said:

It's not a question of clout within the group.

At the SAG meetings,recommendations are made based on the various safety regulations. and it is up to the club (as the safety certificate holders) and Sheffield City Council (as the licensing authority) to accept them or not.

I can fully understand that mate but are there national guidelines to be followed as standards seem to vary massively from ground to ground and by definition option SAG to SAG ?

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There wouldn't be any sort of crush anywhere in the ground of course because (god forbid) if anything of that nature started to happen these days the fans can escape onto the pitch. Something I'm sure missed by some when discussing evacuating the stadium which is, I'm led to believe the reason behind some of the restrictions.

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3 hours ago, helmut_rooster said:

 

Ibrox stadium where Rangers play also has a history or disaster, but the police up there can cope with a minimum 4 Glasgow derbies a season without closing stands why on earth can this not be done here? 

It does indeed, but since then the stadium has been totally rebuilt, which is what needs to happen at Hillsborough.

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3 hours ago, casbahowl said:

SYP have criminally underestimated the ex pat support that Rangers have in England, particularly in the old mining areas, many of which have an S, NG & DE postcode. This meant that as of last Friday tickets went on general sale with no restriction on the amount that could be purchased, the demand for these tickets is now much higher because of the ridiculous restrictions imposed on the Rangers fans.

Through total mismanagement SYP have actively encouraged many, many ex pat Gers to go down this route.

Hopefully the feel good factor of our last meeting will roll through to this fixture but that will be in spite of SYP not because of it.

The term SYP football intelligence seems to be a contradiction in terms ! 

 

 

 

 

 

Ever thought they self-engineer things for their own end though? Whilst your ex-pat points above hold weight, I can't help but be utterly cynical of SYP/SAG forcing this very issue, so it indeed does end badly in Home ends (not a crush just many kerfuffles) and then they can further asphyxiate this great football club, due to SAG having being totally inpet at their duties to the community for a few years now.

We've all attended games at Away grounds, or seen them on TV and I've yet to see such a gulf in size of so called 'Segregation' as what they employ here at SWFC, it's laughable and SYP / SAG HAVE NO TRUE BASIS for this but hide behind pathetic generic excuses!

Mind you, anything that is local council affiliated, as Safety Advisory Groups are and then mix the Police (Not the officers as they're just doing their jobs) decision makers; as with many other aspects of life, we are controlled much more than you think by the "State" and they will continue to expand in their control.

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3 hours ago, BathgateBob said:

Surely there is more chance of trouble (frustration,  drinking etc) with having maybe 3000 fans travelling down, outside the ground without tickets. Rather than having the 9k in the ground.

 

Now they will surely have to have a plan B to minimise the risk, probably open the west stand?

 

 

The irony of the whole scenario eh? Beer, tickets, access, crowd.

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41 minutes ago, robster_owl said:

Ever thought they self-engineer things for their own end though? Whilst your ex-pat points above hold weight, I can't help but be utterly cynical of SYP/SAG forcing this very issue, so it indeed does end badly in Home ends (not a crush just many kerfuffles) and then they can further asphyxiate this great football club, due to SAG having being totally inpet at their duties to the community for a few years now.

We've all attended games at Away grounds, or seen them on TV and I've yet to see such a gulf in size of so called 'Segregation' as what they employ here at SWFC, it's laughable and SYP / SAG HAVE NO TRUE BASIS for this but hide behind pathetic generic excuses!

Mind you, anything that is local council affiliated, as Safety Advisory Groups are and then mix the Police (Not the officers as they're just doing their jobs) decision makers; as with many other aspects of life, we are controlled much more than you think by the "State" and they will continue to expand in their control.

Great post but I think you're crediting them with far more Intelligence than they actually deserve.

More Clouseau than Morse !

 

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1 hour ago, casbahowl said:

I can fully understand that mate but are there national guidelines to be followed as standards seem to vary massively from ground to ground and by definition option SAG to SAG ?

Maybe, we will never know because the only public documentation available is the safety certicate which only states what the capacity is for each stand.

 

I havent got an upto date copy of Hilsborough's certificate but as an example, below is a copy of QPR's, a ground that was mentioned in a previous post.

 

Without detailed dimensioned drawings of the grounds we cant tell if the safety regulations are being applied consistently. 

 

From the many posts I read on here, the main complaint is over segregation issues but that is not SAG responsibility but rather a decision made between the club & the police.

 

https://www.lbhf.gov.uk/sites/default/files/section_attachments/qpr_general_safety_certificate_v.5.pdf

 

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5 hours ago, RichieB said:

Most likely a very unpopular view but we need to leave Hillsborough. There I said it. 

 

Just knocking down the away end and rebuilding isnt going to cut it imo, they will still restrict us and it will still be the area where the disaster happened. Its still the ground where the disaster happened and were still being punished for it today. Since the findings have come out the police and SAG are shiit scared of allowing a real sell out at Hillsborough, the Wycombe attendance will never happen again at Hillsborough. To them the word Hillsborough is a dirty word.

 

Every stand apart from the kop has some sort of restriction put on it if I'm not wrong? 

 

A brand new state of the art, fit for purpose built stadium is the only way we will be able to sell every seat in the house and be treated like every other club. 

don't agree with moving it would be like supporting another club, ground can quite easily be modernised and made into a 45000 seater arena . where would we move to? surely not near m hall ? traffic will be at a standstill once ikea opens and possible m hall extension . only area I see free with land  is old airport site and bottom of wooley wood there seems to be a large area there between m1 and train line. either  site wouldn't be same as going down to Hillsborough.

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1 hour ago, cactus said:

It's not a question of clout within the group.

At the SAG meetings,recommendations are made based on the various safety regulations. and it is up to the club (as the safety certificate holders) and Sheffield City Council (as the licensing authority) to accept them or not.

 

Can I ask how you know what's on the agenda at a SAG meeting mate? Genuinely. And, who attends them, how often they are & where they are held? All genuine questions, if you have any insight. It's hard for me to phrase a question on here without sounding a smart 'arris or suspicious of you, but the whole cloak & dagger existence of this group seems a bit odd. If the club are actually present, why the hell would they concur with some of the bizarre seating allocations & crowd segregation? Newcastle & Villa sold loads, yet other well supported teams got far less. In the same stand.

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4 hours ago, Gregzthe1 said:

That's because they can't afford it. I know that most matches used to be on overtime but not now it's done by cancelling cops days off. Get clubs to pay for policing outside the ground. May see a different attitude when it's not coming out of already stretched budgets.

Whole different argument there, paying for policing outside the ground when we already pay taxes. That would come down to private companies doing it cheaper lots of Max and Paddy types on Penistone Road, No Thanks

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7 minutes ago, The only way is S6 said:

 

Can I ask how you know what's on the agenda at a SAG meeting mate? Genuinely. And, who attends them, how often they are & where they are held? All genuine questions, if you have any insight. It's hard for me to phrase a question on here without sounding a smart 'arris or suspicious of you, but the whole cloak & dagger existence of this group seems a bit odd. If the club are actually present, why the hell would they concur with some of the bizarre seating allocations & crowd segregation? Newcastle & Villa sold loads, yet other well supported teams got far less. In the same stand.

My only knowledge is how the safety regulations work.

 

I'm not part of SAG , but all the minutes & agendas of their meetings are public documents that you can request from the council. They even publish some of them online, but good luck to actually finding them!

 

With respect to why the club goes along with the recommendations, they either agree with them or don't potentially want to be personally liable if anything goes wrong (see Graham Mackrell's summons over 1989).

 

I belive the capacity of the lepps (upper & lower)at this time is around 4,500, it is up to the visiting club to request that amount if they want it, but the club & SYP can restrict it if they feel it necessary.

 

 

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