Black Secret Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 As a bit of fun and hopefully a nice distraction for everyone as we gear up for the new season, I thought you might be interested in the following:- Although there are many ‘All time football league positions’ claiming to be the definite one, this particular one (as someone who works doing a lot of sporting stats) putting it simply is based on every League position and major domestic cup competition were all 92 league clubs (in the league at that time) compete. It doesn’t include minor Cup competitions such as the EFL – which is only open to the 3rd and 4th tiered league teams, so in our opinion is not a true representation. It also doesn’t include league attendances, how many times a club has spent in the Premiership etc., its purely based on were a club finishes in each domestic competition in every season they have competed. So how does it work as a true measure of success? For every season that a club has appeared in the Football league since its concept in 1888-89, the FA Cup since its concept in 1872-73 and more recently the League Cup in 1960-61, the points system roughly works as follows:- The Football league: 1st = 1 point 92nd = 92 points The FA Cup and League Cup: Winners = 1 point Runners up = 2 points Points for teams knocked out in the other various Cup rounds can vary depending on the amount of teams competing in that season, plus changes in structure to the rounds over the years, so can vary from 3 points to 56 points or more, depending on which cup competition it is. The cumulative totals for each club in each cup are then divided by seasons in that competition for an overall average total. So the less points a club has = the higher up that club will appear in the list. Please note European competition is a difficult one to include outright as only a few teams compete each season. A measure of how a club qualified and performed in Europe is taken in to consideration, but is a difficult one to explain in detail. Please also remember History takes a long time to build and equally to fall. As previously mentioned this is based on every position in every season, in every mayor cup competitions and not just the recent past. Finally this List will never appear in any magazine, newspaper or website, as it has been primarily generated for mine and few others use. It is not rubber stamped ‘official’ or the ‘gospel’ but in our opinion is the most exact in every detail, although I’m sure some will still challenge it. I hope you enjoy it. Below is Part one, which shows clubs from 45th to 92nd positions broken into how they would appear in the all-time 3rd and 4th tier positions, plus their accumulative points gained over the years. I have also added positions 93rd to 100 out of interest, if indeed anyone is… Part 2 tomorrow which will show positions 1 – 44 (the top two tiers of English Football) 45 BARNSLEY 103.05 46 GRIMSBY TOWN 104.98 47 READING 109.26 48 BURY 109.47 49 OLDHAM ATHLETIC 110.54 50 SWANSEA CITY 111.01 51 SWINDON TOWN 111.31 52 BRIGHTON & HOVE ALBION 113.18 53 MK DONS 116.31 54 ROTHERHAM UTD 117.33 55 PLYMOUTH ARGYLE 117.51 56 OXFORD UTD 117.95 57 BRADFORD CITY 118.32 58 WIGAN ATHLETIC 119.71 59 LEYTON ORIENT 121.47 60 BRISTOL ROVERS 124.31 61 PORT VALE 125.37 62 BRENTFORD 126.02 63 WALSALL 128.12 64 BOURNMOUTH 130.05 65 TRANMERE ROVERS 130.32 66 PETERBOROUGH UTD 132.23 67 CARLISLE UTD 132.38 68 LINCOLN CITY 134.87 69 SHREWSBURY TOWN 136.44 70 CHESTERFIELD 136.53 71 STOCKPORT CO. 136.67 72 SOUTHEND UTD 139.02 73 DONCASTER ROVERS 139.07 74 NORTHAMPTON TOWN 139.44 75 WREXHAM 139.81 76 GILLINGHAM 140.09 77 CREWE ALEX. 141.13 78 ACCRINGTON STANLEY 143.91 79 YEOVIL TOWN 144.79 80 SCUNTHORPE UTD 145.15 81 CAMBRIDGE UTD 145.97 82 COLCHESTER UTD 146.66 83 BURTON ALBION 147.01 84 STEVENAGE FC 148.25 85 CRAWLEY TOWN 149.71 86 YORK CITY 150.27 87 MANSFIELD TOWN 150.34 88 WYCOMBE WANDERERS 150.98 89 EXETER CITY 153.49 90 NEWPORT COUNTY 154.32 91 FLEETWOOD TOWN 155.97 92 TORQUAY UTD 157.01 93 ROCHDALE 158.23 94 ALDERSHOT 158.31 95 HARTLEPOOL UTD 158.51 96 MACCLESFIELD TOWN 159.79 97 CHELTENHAM TOWN 161.28 98 MORECAMBE 166.48 99 DAGENHAM & REDBRIDGE 169.11 100 BARNET 169.39 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flo Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Barnet tho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Road Runner Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Can you post the other in 7 days? Will take a week to read this one and work it out. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chow Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 6 minutes ago, tuttuttut said: Can you post the other in 7 days? Will take a week to read this one and work it out. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OxonOwl Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Interesting but no real surprises there. Let's see what tomorrow holds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oh_weds_we_love_you Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Don't agree that the League Cup and the FA Cup should warrant the same points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plonk Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Can't be right that South Yorkshire footballing power house donny rovers that far down???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthowl Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Three points: The EFL cup is not include because only a few team take part but European games are (in a difficult to explain, complex way). You might argue that all teams COULD play in Europe if good enough, but you'd have to put in a correction factor for the post-Heysel days, when we in particular missed out. The scoring is probably a bit biased towards teams that have been in the league since the early days, i.e. being last would only score 12 points. Hence the average of teams like Notts County / Preston could be a bit high. I would image that a team like Gateshead, that only appeared for a few seasons when there were two divisions, should come fairly high. How has the Div 3 North/South been considered? Does bottom get 92 or 68 or something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowOwl Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 2 minutes ago, steveraper said: Swansea at 50, Brighton at 52? Shows how they're both over-achieving compared with their historical "status". Leyton Orient at 59 - shows how they're being ruined by their present owner. I'd say bournemouth are the standout there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OxonOwl Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Swansea, Brighton and Bournemouth didn't surprise me as their current status is recent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MallorcaOwl Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 27 minutes ago, OxonOwl said: Interesting but no real surprises there. Let's see what tomorrow holds Brighton & Bournemouth in there, and look where they are now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross owl Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 1 hour ago, MallorcaOwl said: Brighton & Bournemouth in there, and look where they are now If someone mega rich once visited skegness and loved it and made a team they'd have it in the prem after successive promotions too . Look at Red Bull with RB Leipzig in Germany , take over a small club , change everything about it including it's name , abuse and bend the rules ,and in four years runner up to Bayern . Look at Chelsea , a few years ago a complete basket case and team wise equal to us and now look at us . Still we have the prem to look forward to and the pigs to laugh at Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellis Rimmer Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Can't wait to see what tomorrow brings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birley Owl 1867 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 We'll be about 20th I reckon. Pigs 30th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobster01 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 9 hours ago, Tamworthowl said: Three points: The EFL cup is not include because only a few team take part but European games are (in a difficult to explain, complex way). You might argue that all teams COULD play in Europe if good enough, but you'd have to put in a correction factor for the post-Heysel days, when we in particular missed out. The scoring is probably a bit biased towards teams that have been in the league since the early days, i.e. being last would only score 12 points. Hence the average of teams like Notts County / Preston could be a bit high. I would image that a team like Gateshead, that only appeared for a few seasons when there were two divisions, should come fairly high. How has the Div 3 North/South been considered? Does bottom get 92 or 68 or something else? But you could play in the EFL cup if you are bad enough so technically all teams could play in the EFL cup too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveyboy66 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 No doubt the Pigonomics kicking in will show Dem Galactico's are above us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HirstWhoScoredIt Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, Black Secret said: As a bit of fun and hopefully a nice distraction for everyone as we gear up for the new season, I thought you might be interested in the following:- Although there are many ‘All time football league positions’ claiming to be the definite one, this particular one (as someone who works doing a lot of sporting stats) putting it simply is based on every League position and major domestic cup competition were all 92 league clubs (in the league at that time) compete. It doesn’t include minor Cup competitions such as the EFL – which is only open to the 3rd and 4th tiered league teams, so in our opinion is not a true representation. It also doesn’t include league attendances, how many times a club has spent in the Premiership etc., its purely based on were a club finishes in each domestic competition in every season they have competed. So how does it work as a true measure of success? For every season that a club has appeared in the Football league since its concept in 1888-89, the FA Cup since its concept in 1872-73 and more recently the League Cup in 1960-61, the points system roughly works as follows:- The Football league: 1st = 1 point 92nd = 92 points The FA Cup and League Cup: Winners = 1 point Runners up = 2 points Points for teams knocked out in the other various Cup rounds can vary depending on the amount of teams competing in that season, plus changes in structure to the rounds over the years, so can vary from 3 points to 56 points or more, depending on which cup competition it is. The cumulative totals for each club in each cup are then divided by seasons in that competition for an overall average total. So the less points a club has = the higher up that club will appear in the list. Please note European competition is a difficult one to include outright as only a few teams compete each season. A measure of how a club qualified and performed in Europe is taken in to consideration, but is a difficult one to explain in detail. Please also remember History takes a long time to build and equally to fall. As previously mentioned this is based on every position in every season, in every mayor cup competitions and not just the recent past. Finally this List will never appear in any magazine, newspaper or website, as it has been primarily generated for mine and few others use. It is not rubber stamped ‘official’ or the ‘gospel’ but in our opinion is the most exact in every detail, although I’m sure some will still challenge it. I hope you enjoy it. Below is Part one, which shows clubs from 45th to 92nd positions broken into how they would appear in the all-time 3rd and 4th tier positions, plus their accumulative points gained over the years. I have also added positions 93rd to 100 out of interest, if indeed anyone is… Part 2 tomorrow which will show positions 1 – 44 (the top two tiers of English Football) 45 BARNSLEY 103.05 46 GRIMSBY TOWN 104.98 47 READING 109.26 48 BURY 109.47 49 OLDHAM ATHLETIC 110.54 50 SWANSEA CITY 111.01 51 SWINDON TOWN 111.31 52 BRIGHTON & HOVE ALBION 113.18 53 MK DONS 116.31 54 ROTHERHAM UTD 117.33 55 PLYMOUTH ARGYLE 117.51 56 OXFORD UTD 117.95 57 BRADFORD CITY 118.32 58 WIGAN ATHLETIC 119.71 59 LEYTON ORIENT 121.47 60 BRISTOL ROVERS 124.31 61 PORT VALE 125.37 62 BRENTFORD 126.02 63 WALSALL 128.12 64 BOURNMOUTH 130.05 65 TRANMERE ROVERS 130.32 66 PETERBOROUGH UTD 132.23 67 CARLISLE UTD 132.38 68 LINCOLN CITY 134.87 69 SHREWSBURY TOWN 136.44 70 CHESTERFIELD 136.53 71 STOCKPORT CO. 136.67 72 SOUTHEND UTD 139.02 73 DONCASTER ROVERS 139.07 74 NORTHAMPTON TOWN 139.44 75 WREXHAM 139.81 76 GILLINGHAM 140.09 77 CREWE ALEX. 141.13 78 ACCRINGTON STANLEY 143.91 79 YEOVIL TOWN 144.79 80 SCUNTHORPE UTD 145.15 81 CAMBRIDGE UTD 145.97 82 COLCHESTER UTD 146.66 83 BURTON ALBION 147.01 84 STEVENAGE FC 148.25 85 CRAWLEY TOWN 149.71 86 YORK CITY 150.27 87 MANSFIELD TOWN 150.34 88 WYCOMBE WANDERERS 150.98 89 EXETER CITY 153.49 90 NEWPORT COUNTY 154.32 91 FLEETWOOD TOWN 155.97 92 TORQUAY UTD 157.01 93 ROCHDALE 158.23 94 ALDERSHOT 158.31 95 HARTLEPOOL UTD 158.51 96 MACCLESFIELD TOWN 159.79 97 CHELTENHAM TOWN 161.28 98 MORECAMBE 166.48 99 DAGENHAM & REDBRIDGE 169.11 100 BARNET 169.39 I think I have spotted a flaw. 1-92 league positions this works for. cup competitions- you have stated one point to winner and two points to the runner up. Therefore, aren't you better off to take zero points by not making the final at all? EDIT:- sorry I didn't read it properly Edited July 18, 2017 by HirstWhoScoredIt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dingle. Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 10 hours ago, BowOwl said: I'd say bournemouth are the standout there Id say Bristol City are the stand outs to be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ash76 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 3 minutes ago, HirstWhoScoredIt said: I think I have spotted a flaw. 1-92 league positions this works for. cup competitions- you have stated one point to winner and two points to the runner up. Therefore, aren't you better off to take zero points by not making the final at all? Quote Points for teams knocked out in the other various Cup rounds can vary depending on the amount of teams competing in that season, plus changes in structure to the rounds over the years, so can vary from 3 points to 56 points or more, depending on which cup competition it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HirstWhoScoredIt Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Just now, Ash76 said: Yeah sorry, see my edit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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