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How many players do we need, realistically?


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Many would agree a move from the 4-4-2 system we have played for most of this season; resulting in a negative, conservative football. 

 

A 4-3-3 system seems to be most peoples ideal system  and as we have to stick to FFP,  it would get the most of out of the players we already have. I think ultimately, FFP will be the thing that holds us back. Its been mentioned multiple times in interviews with Carlos and most of our deals have gone undisclosed. 

 

From looking at the team we already have....

 

Defence: 1 CB, (1 LB, maybe)

Keep Hunt and Palmer at RB. Keep Lees with a new CB, have Loovens and Sasso 3rd and 4th. CB will be expensive and hard to come by but if we can find one then we could be away with one of the best defence records in the league. Fox can stay as 2nd/3rd LB is Pudil wants to stay but for me he can leave. Whoever saw Urby come on and play against Fulham may agree with me - I dont know if he was playing to impress (Whoever that might be) but I thought his explosive pace was something we missed throughout the season. Wouldnt want to put my money on him on one game, especially with the injury(?) record, however. That said we could really do with an automatic first team starting LB to put in more quality balls and transform our game, again, expensive.

 

Midfield: None 

We already have some great midfield players. For me, Bannan needs to start every game. Been probably our best player over the two seasons and when hes on his game, we control games. Also, he plays balls sometimes and I sit there thinking woah, this season its been one of the few exciting things we've had in our game.

That leaves Lee, a player with great quality and desire, paired with Hutchinson, (who remembers the double slide tackles, brilliant stuff). Now that leaves Jones, Abdi, Semedo and McGugan in the centre. Jones is great backup for Hutch and Abdi if he plays can fill in for Lee/Bannan. I'd love Semedo to stay but realistically I wouldnt want him to get much chance of a game. McGugan needs to go, careful who to though cause I think he's a brilliant player, just not good enough for where we want to be.

 

Wings: 1 RW, (1 LW)
On the sides we have Wallace and Reach. Both I think can have their runs in the first team but ideally we need someone better. This is somewhere where we desperately lack threat. Buckley isnt good enough and I didnt see enough of McManaman but he looked more like it. If Forestieri would happily play on the LW then so be it, but for me he can go if the system doesnt work for him. I have no hard feeling towards him at all, I just feel his time in this league is over. Hes too well known as our threat and as seen against Huddersfield, opposing stocky defenders gang up on him. He has bags of pace and skill but he just cant physically deal with it when he doesnt have space. A move abroad would be probably mean 1st division football as well. 

 

Striker: (None)

A problem with our strike force is that they all need partners. Playing a 4-1-2-1-2 would be narrow, but ensure we could lump Rhodes on with Hooper or Fletcher with FF ideally dropping behind. That said, if we could sign a quality winger with a great cross, Rhodes or Fletcher may thrive on their own. Big Dave is great in defensive situations and plays well as a target man but having him there at all just breeds negativity, undecided on him. Keep Winnall as cover. Ship Matias off. 

 

Can we afford it?

To bring in a quality winger and CB, we might just tip the FFP and get into trouble. No one wants that. We will have to sell players. Hooper can go for a good profit. In my opinion we have one striker too many and on top of that upsetting players, no one gets a run of form. Be nice if the likes of Fletcher, Rhodes and Hooper are happy training for their money but something tells me at least one wont. Selling the likes of Forestieri (considering he wanted a move) to another league for big money may free up enough funds for someone similar (although maybe less than before, damn Brexit). 

At the start of the season, we played Hutch in CB. Cant remember why we stopped but if he could play there and stay there then we may be in luck. He did train as a CB, right? He does play well in midfield, but he could be replaced by Abdi at no extra cost. The real problems come into the expense of signing first team quality to turn us into league beaters.

 

So really, I dont think many buys are necessary. It would be nice if we could turn back the clock on Rhodes. Not knocking him for Wednesday, but he just doesnt seem to have that drive I thought he would bring. Like I said earlier, hes not a lone striker so I dont even know if he necessarily fits. Hoping next season he grows into the shirt.

 

As I'm here, I have to give two cents on Carlos: Keep him in my opinion, be silly to upset the progression we're making. Not naive enough to see past his mistakes and I'm not a fan of his recent style of football, but I think he's a very clever manager/bloke. Review at the start of December if its not going our way. Looking at this, if Hutch worked at CB at the start of the season, Urby and Matias actually played a game, Carlos would have a full threatening squad. 

 

This turned out way longer than I thought it was going to and I fully regret even bothering. Still really hurt about Wednesday. Starting to see the silver linings now though, a very exciting season ahead, cant wait for it to start.

 

TL;DR - High priority for a RW and CB. Cant break the bank due to FFP. Could give Hutch a go at CB to free up space in midfield for Abdi. Maybe sell Forestieri, Hooper depending on where and how much. Squad still looks as strong on paper as it in February and a few send offs and few new faces should be enough to do better again next season. 

 

 

 

 

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I'd say 4 signings:

 

left back - Pudil is not quick enough

 

centre back - Loovens is unfortunately struggling with knocks all the time & we need more mobility in the centre backs

 

cdm/Hutch cover - Hutch as well as playing midfield should be cover for centre back, that & his injuries means we need a back up

 

right wing - Wallace type but with more pace who can help stretch teams

 

If we were to move away from 442 then Forestieri should be used on the left. If we stick with 442 then Pudil should become back up to Reach/Forestieri... it's where he plays for his country. So I don't see the need for a left sided midfielder/winger.

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Great OP.

 

 I feel player questions are on hold until we know about Carlos. He will play 442, so what's the point in looking at who fits into a 433.

 

Any new manager will have his own style and philosophy, so such a discussion makes more sense next week.

 

I think we need almost no players though. What we have are shown good enough, if played as a team and in their best positions.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Holmowl said:

Great OP.

 

 I feel player questions are on hold until we know about Carlos. He will play 442, so what's the point in looking at who fits into a 433.

 

Any new manager will have his own style and philosophy, so such a discussion makes more sense next week.

 

I think we need almost no players though. What we have are shown good enough, if played as a team and in their best positions.

 

 

I'm not so certain Carlos will be rigid to 442. He never wanted to play that way in the early days and only did due to squad limitations/hitting results. 

 

With a full squad at his disposal and preseason to get it working I think we could see any number of formations. 

 

Like you say players to deliver that are minimal, with little movement now I could see decent line ups in variety of formations, 352, 442, 343, 433. 

 

This seasons been frustrating as very rarely were all the pieces available at the same time. 

 

 

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LB (or Reach)

CH (or Hutch)

Midfield power player to run the show (Bannan can do it when he's allowed to play forward, possibly Abdi but I've not seen enough of him to judge !!!)

RW who has pace and can use right foot ( I like Wallace but he has to cut back inside to use his left foot and we lose momentum)

LW who has pace and can use left foot.

 

So when you look at that we have  many of players at the club now. Two pacey wingers and a shuffle, possibly a CH if we're not confident about Hutches fitness.

 

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6 hours ago, Exceptionally_Large said:

Many would agree a move from the 4-4-2 system we have played for most of this season; resulting in a negative, conservative football. 

 

A 4-3-3 system seems to be most peoples ideal system  and as we have to stick to FFP,  it would get the most of out of the players we already have. I think ultimately, FFP will be the thing that holds us back. Its been mentioned multiple times in interviews with Carlos and most of our deals have gone undisclosed. 

 

From looking at the team we already have....

 

Defence: 1 CB, (1 LB, maybe)

Keep Hunt and Palmer at RB. Keep Lees with a new CB, have Loovens and Sasso 3rd and 4th. CB will be expensive and hard to come by but if we can find one then we could be away with one of the best defence records in the league. Fox can stay as 2nd/3rd LB is Pudil wants to stay but for me he can leave. Whoever saw Urby come on and play against Fulham may agree with me - I dont know if he was playing to impress (Whoever that might be) but I thought his explosive pace was something we missed throughout the season. Wouldnt want to put my money on him on one game, especially with the injury(?) record, however. That said we could really do with an automatic first team starting LB to put in more quality balls and transform our game, again, expensive.

 

Midfield: None 

We already have some great midfield players. For me, Bannan needs to start every game. Been probably our best player over the two seasons and when hes on his game, we control games. Also, he plays balls sometimes and I sit there thinking woah, this season its been one of the few exciting things we've had in our game.

That leaves Lee, a player with great quality and desire, paired with Hutchinson, (who remembers the double slide tackles, brilliant stuff). Now that leaves Jones, Abdi, Semedo and McGugan in the centre. Jones is great backup for Hutch and Abdi if he plays can fill in for Lee/Bannan. I'd love Semedo to stay but realistically I wouldnt want him to get much chance of a game. McGugan needs to go, careful who to though cause I think he's a brilliant player, just not good enough for where we want to be.

 

Wings: 1 RW, (1 LW)
On the sides we have Wallace and Reach. Both I think can have their runs in the first team but ideally we need someone better. This is somewhere where we desperately lack threat. Buckley isnt good enough and I didnt see enough of McManaman but he looked more like it. If Forestieri would happily play on the LW then so be it, but for me he can go if the system doesnt work for him. I have no hard feeling towards him at all, I just feel his time in this league is over. Hes too well known as our threat and as seen against Huddersfield, opposing stocky defenders gang up on him. He has bags of pace and skill but he just cant physically deal with it when he doesnt have space. A move abroad would be probably mean 1st division football as well. 

 

Striker: (None)

A problem with our strike force is that they all need partners. Playing a 4-1-2-1-2 would be narrow, but ensure we could lump Rhodes on with Hooper or Fletcher with FF ideally dropping behind. That said, if we could sign a quality winger with a great cross, Rhodes or Fletcher may thrive on their own. Big Dave is great in defensive situations and plays well as a target man but having him there at all just breeds negativity, undecided on him. Keep Winnall as cover. Ship Matias off. 

 

Can we afford it?

To bring in a quality winger and CB, we might just tip the FFP and get into trouble. No one wants that. We will have to sell players. Hooper can go for a good profit. In my opinion we have one striker too many and on top of that upsetting players, no one gets a run of form. Be nice if the likes of Fletcher, Rhodes and Hooper are happy training for their money but something tells me at least one wont. Selling the likes of Forestieri (considering he wanted a move) to another league for big money may free up enough funds for someone similar (although maybe less than before, damn Brexit). 

At the start of the season, we played Hutch in CB. Cant remember why we stopped but if he could play there and stay there then we may be in luck. He did train as a CB, right? He does play well in midfield, but he could be replaced by Abdi at no extra cost. The real problems come into the expense of signing first team quality to turn us into league beaters.

 

So really, I dont think many buys are necessary. It would be nice if we could turn back the clock on Rhodes. Not knocking him for Wednesday, but he just doesnt seem to have that drive I thought he would bring. Like I said earlier, hes not a lone striker so I dont even know if he necessarily fits. Hoping next season he grows into the shirt.

 

As I'm here, I have to give two cents on Carlos: Keep him in my opinion, be silly to upset the progression we're making. Not naive enough to see past his mistakes and I'm not a fan of his recent style of football, but I think he's a very clever manager/bloke. Review at the start of December if its not going our way. Looking at this, if Hutch worked at CB at the start of the season, Urby and Matias actually played a game, Carlos would have a full threatening squad. 

 

This turned out way longer than I thought it was going to and I fully regret even bothering. Still really hurt about Wednesday. Starting to see the silver linings now though, a very exciting season ahead, cant wait for it to start.

 

TL;DR - High priority for a RW and CB. Cant break the bank due to FFP. Could give Hutch a go at CB to free up space in midfield for Abdi. Maybe sell Forestieri, Hooper depending on where and how much. Squad still looks as strong on paper as it in February and a few send offs and few new faces should be enough to do better again next season. 

 

 

 

 

 

Nice meaty post!

 

Good point about the FFP, I think unless we sold a 2 or 3 first team standard players we won't be able to bring in another mega signing like Rhodes. I'd be interested to know what our budget is for the summer, pure speculation here but I think £10million would be enough to get us 3 Championship quality LB, CB and RW.

 

Agree with you 100% about Rhodes, it just hasn't worked with him here. On paper he's maybe the perfect striker for this division given his history, but his play style is almost identical to Fletcher, Hooper and Winnalls - just a better finisher. We don't need 4 strikers that are similar, we need a range of different talent up front and Hooper for me aside form being 1/3 of the price is a much better fit and we don't need 2 of the same. 

 

It all depends on the managerial situation, I think CC will leave and whoever bring in might decide to make some big changes tactically. Like you mention I can't see Rhodes/Fletcher/Hooper all staying for another year we at least one of those certain to be a sub. Even players like Forestieri could be on the transfer list, as much as I love FF it's sometimes hard to pinpoint his role in the team going forward. FF has struggled to find chemistry with Rhodes/Fletcher this season (Hooper/Fletcher is our most effective duo) and FF doesn't enjoy being forced into a wider role - arguably the best player we've had in years but for the good of the team would we be better off by selling for a good price and bringing in a quality winger?

 

Surely we have a winning central midfield with Hutchinson/Lee/Bannan/Jones/Abdi I would even be interested to see Wallace in a CAM role. If we had better wingers we could even get away with playing a 433 which would be perfect for players like Hutchinson & Abdi.

 

Either way it all depends on the managerial situation, but I would say regardless of what happens we need younger & quicker upgrades of Pudil/Loovens and a 5 years younger & quicker Ross Wallace.

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Agree we need to streamline the squad. This year we had Wildsmith, Kean, Dawson, Emmanuelson, Dielna, Lachman, Sougou, Semedo, McGugan, McManaman, Buckley, Nuhiu, Matias and Joao all contracted or part of the first team squad but making little or nothing in the way of telling contributions. Thankfully most of those are out of contract or their loans have ended. 

 

When we also have a successful u-23 and youth side surely there are a few in there that could at least plug a gap in an emergency..?

 

I'd keep changes to a minimum and go for quality. A centre half, and a winger with real pace would be perfect.

Edited by paulrs
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Same as last season

 

Centre half x2 presuming Sasso goes

Left Back

Central Midfield Beast

1 Winger, possibly 2 Jota from Brentford and one other please

Powerful Striker with pace, someone like  Asombalonga. 

 

We didnt address these short comings last season, and the need is the same

 

 

Just a bloke, who used up all his luck in one go when he met his wife.

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All depends on what system we play - and who the manager is. For example, there is really no point in us signing a pacey winger if we play similar to what we have this season.

 

Based on the system I would play (4-3-3), I would go with;

 

1 x Centre Half (2 if Sasso leaves).

1 x Central Midfielder (as close to a Keiran Lee clone as possible).

2 x Wide Attackers (offering alternative pace and trickery).

 

First choice 22 (sorry, posted this elsewhere too!);

 

Westwood/Wildsmith

 

Hunt/Palmer

Lees/Sasso

New Centre Half/Loovens

Pudil/Fox

 

Lee/New Central Midfielder

Hutchinson/Jones

Bannan/Abdi

 

Forestier/New Wide Attacker

Rhodes/Fletcher

Hooper/New Wide Attacker

 

Leaves Reach and Winnall in a bit of no mans land - I'm not sure where they would fit in a 4-3-3. Reach may be useful in the wide attack role perhaps? Winnall happy behind Rhodes and Fletcher?

 

Happy for anyone else in the squad to leave and I'd look to start using our impressive youth teams to pad the squad out.

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3 hours ago, swfcGibbo said:

Think it's relatively straight forward:

1 Centre Half

1 Left Back
1 Ball winning midfielder
2 Wingers who can stretch the game when the possession football isin't working.

The thing that concerns me is that this exact list could have been written last summer, but nothing has changed for all the money spent.

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This has got to be the summer when considerable focus and investment is brought to bear on our defence. One high quality CB, and two full backs, preferably ones who are quick enough (and with enough end product) to play in a midfield five.

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4 minutes ago, Beauchief Owl said:

The thing that concerns me is that this exact list could have been written last summer, but nothing has changed for all the money spent.

 

To be fair, we did bring in a left back, a centre half, a defensive midfielder, and two wingers this season.

 

It could be argued Fox's arrive has got Pudil back to his previous levels. I suspect the talk of a centre half is to replace Loovens due to his age (and I agree), but I reckon people will have been happy to have him as first choice this season. The defence had another excellent season, so it can't have been too bad.

 

Who would the ball winner replace? Isn't Hutchinson a ball winner and he's one of the first names on the team sheet. Jones, whilst not done as well as we may expect, who else is going to come in to that holding role and be happy to play second fiddle to Hutchinson?

 

We signed wingers - and barely played them. Would seem pointless signing any this summer is Carlos stays and goes with the same set up as this season.

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