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yes mate I was. 9 hours of tv footage where you had to point out where you were and who you were helping. (I was on the pitch) Also had to attend police investigation at those union offices in town (berlins roundabout?) on an august bank holiday and a number of visits to snig hill for various ID purposes.

The info was all 'matter of fact' as opposed to blame, not sure the opinion of a 21 year old student/turnstile operater would have carried much influence at the time anyway

i would say that your evidence is very valid as it stands at the very beginning of the 'domino effect' / chain of events. anyone ignoring it would be foolish - unless they WANTED/NEEDED to ignore it!

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Thanks Lythamowl.

I can only assume that the Taylor Report didn't deem the events you witnessed as a contributory factor. The report doesn't deny that there were people there without tickets, in fact it accepts that there were, it just doesn't accept that they were of significant volumne to cause the disaster. I would love to know what consideration was given to your evidence, It must have been a terrible time for you and you have my sympathies.

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Thankyou Lythamowl and special thanks to Asteener and Dara for their contributions. Powerful and thought provoking. We've been at the mercy of the Emotional Police for too long when trying to get to the truth of what actually happened that day. Its definitely time to move on.

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Thanks guys

I guess one or two lone voices in 40,000 dont get heard.

Dont get me wrong, I pay my respects to the 96 like everyone else but it just seems now you have a new generation of people with strong feelings about something they know little about or wern't even born when it happened.

Remember that wall at the front of the kelvin flats?......some painted 'police are not to blame 100%' stayed there till they knocked them down...always wondered who wrote that

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RIP the 96 innocents who lost their lives. Today is a day I remember them. Every other day I will debate the other issues surrounding it. Not today though, which is why I respectfully ask if a mod could change the title from JFT96 to RIP 96 or similar?

Pleased to see someone showed some common sense. Sad indictment of OT that others didn't feel the need to show respect and remembrance on a poignant day, and instead, felt it right to try and make a clever point, or try and point out so-called 'irony'.

There's clearly thinly veiled bigotry at play in several posts in this thread, especially JC Saviour's. But not to worry, prejudice towards Liverpudlians is fine. I'd suggest the reason that there's a minute's silence for the Hillsborough football stadium disaster, but not the Munich air disaster, is in large part down to, context.

Well done to the few who pointed out that the behaviour of Liverpool fans that day would have been replicated by many other sets of fans. And to those who say we must move on, the tragedy is a scar that will always be etched on our stadium, whether we like it or not. Like all burdens that are carried, they can't simply be dropped because we want to. Respect and remembrance one day a year (even just a minute's) isn't a lot to ask.

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Thanks guys

I guess one or two lone voices in 40,000 dont get heard.

Dont get me wrong, I pay my respects to the 96 like everyone else but it just seems now you have a new generation of people with strong feelings about something they know little about or wern't even born when it happened.

Remember that wall at the front of the kelvin flats?......some painted 'police are not to blame 100%' stayed there till they knocked them down...always wondered who wrote that

Bit ambigous that "Police are not to blame 100%".... does it mean they 100% not to blame...or to blame for some..not all of it...

Ive posted my views times many...but put yourself in the position of a copper at Hillsborough on that day...not a senior officer..but a copper ..As an ordinary copper...you see football fans climbing fences...whats your first thought.....bearing in mind the way football fans behaved at the time.....

Its fvckin' difficult isn't it...I dunno how much communication there was between Senior officers...and the poor fookers who were in the middle of it but.... if it was minimal and I was an ordinary copper...I'd just think it was kicking off..as it had so many times before....and they were the vital minutes....

I know Liverpool fans think they should have had the bigger end....but for gods sake....WEdnesday should have the bigger end at Brentford/...Man Utd should have the bigger end at most of the grounds they go to...theres a limit....and you have to adhere to it...

The fans who died by common concensus were the ones that got there...in good time...with tickets..thats the bloody tragedy...and culpability does lie with POlice who did not grasp the situation as it happened...it lies with The Fans who were going to get in come hell or high water...it lies with the hooligans from the 60's through to the late 80's who brought these pens into being...it lies with whoever designed these fookin' death traps....there are legions to blame in one way or another for Hillsborough.....

Whats so sad is a lot of football fans...Wednesdayites, Scousers, Unitedites...etc etc etc...could see it coming...not maybe to the extent of the disaster...but it was coming....

We did not at the time have a vehicle to express what we thought...and i dunno if we had whether we would have....but in my opinion..theres no 1 bloke to hang...theres no one you can point to and say "It was his fault..."...I observe the minutes silence for Liverpool fans that died that day...I respect the grief of the families....but if you want justice for the 96....and you want it properly expiated....you don't have to simply look at this side of the Pennines...There are folk you sit next to every fookin' day who's silence is deafening...although in no way are they 100% to blame....

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Reading this sure brings it all back, I was engaged to a Scouser at the time and 2 of her brothers were at the game (Both were safe thank God) Being from Stocksbridge I used to see a lot of teams (fans) call off at the pubs on the main road, natural watering hole after crossing the Woodhead, I remember that day that there were loads of Liverpool fans around both with tickets and without but the thing what always stays in my mind was that most were leaving for the ground well past 2.30 and still leaving at 2.45 ish, just remember thinking that they were going to miss the kick-off, then watching it all unfold on TV, thinking if the fans I'd been talking too an hour or two beforehand were caught up in the unbelievable scenes.

Everyone looks for someone/something to blame in any kind of tradegy, its part of the grieving process, and I'm not going to tell anybody how to behave after such a catastrophic event.

There can be no justice, just thoughts for the 96 and sympathies for the families and friends of the people that sadly lost their lives.

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Pleased to see someone showed some common sense. Sad indictment of OT that others didn't feel the need to show respect and remembrance on a poignant day, and instead, felt it right to try and make a clever point, or try and point out so-called 'irony'.

There's clearly thinly veiled bigotry at play in several posts in this thread, especially JC Saviour's. But not to worry, prejudice towards Liverpudlians is fine. I'd suggest the reason that there's a minute's silence for the Hillsborough football stadium disaster, but not the Munich air disaster, is in large part down to, context.

Well done to the few who pointed out that the behaviour of Liverpool fans that day would have been replicated by many other sets of fans. And to those who say we must move on, the tragedy is a scar that will always be etched on our stadium, whether we like it or not. Like all burdens that are carried, they can't simply be dropped because we want to. Respect and remembrance one day a year (even just a minute's) isn't a lot to ask.

Said it earlier in this thread but will repeat for your benefit. Yesterday was a day to remember the 96 but the OP blew it when he titled the thread as he did.

"JFT96" carries too much baggage to encourage comments just to remember those who died especially on here.

I think most replys on this thread have been respectful and sympathetic but the link with the "justice" campaign was always going to make this more than just a rememberance thread.

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I was there that day - as an 18 year old working one of the turnstiles on Leppings Lane. Having to let three fans through at a time on one quarter turn of the stile because only one had a ticket and it was too crushed outside to turn them round. Dozens of times.

The real travesty is the 96 were there on time, safely, not drunk, with tickets...and those who campaign loudest (apart from the bereaved, for whom I have deepest sympathy) are the ones who were late, drunk and ticketless - much like the ones who came back to my turnstile at 3.15 (while I was still finishing) banging on the window blaming me for the problems.

Unfortunately, 'Justice' in this case doesn't actually mean Justice - it means scapegoat and it means SYP. They may not have been blameless, but they are not culpable.

very well put, I bet they have never asked you for your input into the enquiry, why, because its the truth.

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Guest Sniper1

Pleased to see someone showed some common sense. Sad indictment of OT that others didn't feel the need to show respect and remembrance on a poignant day, and instead, felt it right to try and make a clever point, or try and point out so-called 'irony'.

There's clearly thinly veiled bigotry at play in several posts in this thread, especially JC Saviour's. But not to worry, prejudice towards Liverpudlians is fine. I'd suggest the reason that there's a minute's silence for the Hillsborough football stadium disaster, but not the Munich air disaster, is in large part down to, context.

Well done to the few who pointed out that the behaviour of Liverpool fans that day would have been replicated by many other sets of fans. And to those who say we must move on, the tragedy is a scar that will always be etched on our stadium, whether we like it or not. Like all burdens that are carried, they can't simply be dropped because we want to. Respect and remembrance one day a year (even just a minute's) isn't a lot to ask.

Top post.

That semi final could have been at any other game at any other ground and could have involved any other fanbase.

I often find myself thinking what if that was our fanbase that took those casualties and deaths at a game, how would we feel now?

Any different to the Liverpool fans now?

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I'm glad a couple of the turnstile operators that day on the Leppings Lane end have posted their experiences from that day.

I too was working at Hillsborough that day on the Kop but was quickly on then helping fans and then carrying bodies to the temporary morgue.

I remember whilst on the pitch asking who opened the exit gate and seemed to ask the right person who snapped back at me that he had on the orders of the Police.

I was visited the following Saturday by the West Midlands Police to be interviewed and then pestered for months after by support groups asking if I wanted any counciling.

Sad events but we must be allowed to move on and not have it dragged up by Liverpudlians many who were not even born or old enough to remember the events of the day and just believe the hype that their fans were all angels.

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Pleased to see someone showed some common sense. Sad indictment of OT that others didn't feel the need to show respect and remembrance on a poignant day, and instead, felt it right to try and make a clever point, or try and point out so-called 'irony'.

There's clearly thinly veiled bigotry at play in several posts in this thread, especially JC Saviour's. But not to worry, prejudice towards Liverpudlians is fine. I'd suggest the reason that there's a minute's silence for the Hillsborough football stadium disaster, but not the Munich air disaster, is in large part down to, context.

Well done to the few who pointed out that the behaviour of Liverpool fans that day would have been replicated by many other sets of fans. And to those who say we must move on, the tragedy is a scar that will always be etched on our stadium, whether we like it or not. Like all burdens that are carried, they can't simply be dropped because we want to. Respect and remembrance one day a year (even just a minute's) isn't a lot to ask.

I don't think its owt "thinly veiled"..nor do I think it bigotry...no-ones particularly prejudiced against Liverpool fans either mate...I think they are just saying it as they see it...I went to Anfield in the 80's...it was not fun...no doubt some Liverpool fans may say the same of coming to us...

But if you want JUstice...you have to take the whole picture into account...you have seen the posts on here...people who were actually there..on the turnstiles..in the hospitals...in the pubs....

WEdnesday fans feel obliged to shuffle around the subject because they are ashamed that it happened at Hillsborough...Wednesday fans feel quite rightly that you have to show respect for the poor fvckers that died that day...but also you have to say it as you see it...and i'm sorry if it upsets anybody...but Liverpool fans were not blameless...

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I don't think its owt "thinly veiled"..nor do I think it bigotry...no-ones particularly prejudiced against Liverpool fans either mate...I think they are just saying it as they see it...I went to Anfield in the 80's...it was not fun...no doubt some Liverpool fans may say the same of coming to us...

But if you want JUstice...you have to take the whole picture into account...you have seen the posts on here...people who were actually there..on the turnstiles..in the hospitals...in the pubs....

WEdnesday fans feel obliged to shuffle around the subject because they are ashamed that it happened at Hillsborough...Wednesday fans feel quite rightly that you have to show respect for the poor fvckers that died that day...but also you have to say it as you see it...and i'm sorry if it upsets anybody...but Liverpool fans were not blameless...

I think you have been spot on with all your posts mate. I know loads of scouses both red and blue and for the most part avoid this subject however, none of them i know were there that day and believe most of what the Liverpool press and the justice organisation say. I have pointed out on many occasions because most of them never went to away games, the ticketless fans and the way football fans all over the country were treated. I'm from hillsborough and my family still live there, I remember making cups of tea and fans using our phone, the same fans that were on the ale all day.

I showed my daughter footage from heysel and Bradford yesterday as she didn't know about them and the banning of English clubs in Europe. Her reaction was how come there is no press fuss about those two events yet hillsborough is rammed down everyone's throats.

The bottom line is 96 people that just went to a football match tragically lost their lives, the people responsible are those that felt it was acceptable to kick off with other fans/police through the 60, 70 and 80s, governments and law enforces that had no idea how to deal with it and chairmen that were happy to let stadia fall to disrepair.

I remember being marched through Manchester and liverpool etc and having stones and bottles lobbed at me, I remember scouse coppers whipping us at everton during the cup replay and countless other occasions where my well being was in danger by fans and police. It is only through sheer luck that this tragedy didn't happen somewhere else and it is about time all football fans realise this and move on.

RIP the 96 but let's celebrate the legacy of hillsborough, that the match day experience is safe and enjoyable for everyone.

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All this 'minute silence' years after the event is devaluing the actual event.

The tragedy is just that; a tragedy of many events, that happened every other week up and down the country at that time, culminating in one 'perfect storm'. It changed football forever, and was always going to happen somewhere; someplace. Unfortunately for us, it happened at our ground, and I’ll never forget it.

Liverpool fans need take a look in the mirror. I truly believe if it was any other club, this level of eternal grief would not be the same. I hate to use the word victim, as this insults the poor, largely innocent actual victims, but collectively they have all negated any blame whatsoever.

What happened with the Chelsea fans yesterday may well mean the minute silence is put to bed once and for all. I’m sure all Wednesday fans have a very private moment of remembrance on the anniversary, if for nothing else we know it could have been us.

RIP

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There will never be justice until the real truth comes out and as Jack Nicholson said "you want the truth, you can't handle the truth". 96 innocent people died on that day and everybody knows where the real blame lies with the exeption of the red half of Liverpool. I too have been attacked at Anfield in the 70's and 80's as a young Owls fan. I was scared sh!tless but they didn't care. The real culprits are still walking free and openly blaming others. I sayrelease all the documents from the enquiry and then, and only then we can move on from this.

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Pleased to see someone showed some common sense. Sad indictment of OT that others didn't feel the need to show respect and remembrance on a poignant day, and instead, felt it right to try and make a clever point, or try and point out so-called 'irony'.

There's clearly thinly veiled bigotry at play in several posts in this thread, especially JC Saviour's. But not to worry, prejudice towards Liverpudlians is fine. I'd suggest the reason that there's a minute's silence for the Hillsborough football stadium disaster, but not the Munich air disaster, is in large part down to, context.

Well done to the few who pointed out that the behaviour of Liverpool fans that day would have been replicated by many other sets of fans. And to those who say we must move on, the tragedy is a scar that will always be etched on our stadium, whether we like it or not. Like all burdens that are carried, they can't simply be dropped because we want to. Respect and remembrance one day a year (even just a minute's) isn't a lot to ask.

I disagree on your ascertion of bigotry, the posts on this thread have been repectfull and place the incident in context. The question is surely the validity the emotional straightjacket that everyone, even eye witnesses, are being forced into. Do you call for a minutes silence for Abervan, or Ibrox, or Bradford to name a few.indeed Heysel is very pertinent to your own position re context.?

No-one is ditching the burden...we just dont want to be restricted in that remembrance.

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So weren't you two turnstyle operaters interviewed for the Taylor Report?

Yes. Interviewed for several hours by the solicitors, then called to the court in Sheffield for an hour or so (no longer as I was studying!) but went to Leeds for the later trial without giving evidence. Like others have said, all the evidence is there, it depends if you want to find it.

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