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I was there that day - as an 18 year old working one of the turnstiles on Leppings Lane. Having to let three fans through at a time on one quarter turn of the stile because only one had a ticket and it was too crushed outside to turn them round. Dozens of times.

The real travesty is the 96 were there on time, safely, not drunk, with tickets...and those who campaign loudest (apart from the bereaved, for whom I have deepest sympathy) are the ones who were late, drunk and ticketless - much like the ones who came back to my turnstile at 3.15 (while I was still finishing) banging on the window blaming me for the problems.

Unfortunately, 'Justice' in this case doesn't actually mean Justice - it means scapegoat and it means SYP. They may not have been blameless, but they are not culpable.

Well said my friend. I refuse to believe its only us Wednesdayites who have these views. The trouble is the media love the scousers that much that nobody dare say a word against them.

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Guest JC Saviour

Pleased to see someone showed some common sense. Sad indictment of OT that others didn't feel the need to show respect and remembrance on a poignant day, and instead, felt it right to try and make a clever point, or try and point out so-called 'irony'.

There's clearly thinly veiled bigotry at play in several posts in this thread, especially JC Saviour's. But not to worry, prejudice towards Liverpudlians is fine. I'd suggest the reason that there's a minute's silence for the Hillsborough football stadium disaster, but not the Munich air disaster, is in large part down to, context.

Well done to the few who pointed out that the behaviour of Liverpool fans that day would have been replicated by many other sets of fans. And to those who say we must move on, the tragedy is a scar that will always be etched on our stadium, whether we like it or not. Like all burdens that are carried, they can't simply be dropped because we want to. Respect and remembrance one day a year (even just a minute's) isn't a lot to ask.

So I am bigot because my views don't match yours. Was it the Forest fans who were to,blame, was it the Wednesday fans who were to blame. Read the facts what posters have put on here and you might get a clearer picture of what could have caused this accident. By the way, I did mention my condolences towards tragic fans who lost ther lifes.

If for instance people knew now what they knew a hour or so before the accident happened, do you personally think they would have acted any differently regarding those fans who tried to gate crash the Leppings Lane entrances and turning up without tickets. Totally and utterly hypothetical saying this would have been replicated by 'many'other fans in the same situation. Would you like to elaborate which other clubs in your opinion would replicate this. But it wasn't, it was Liverpool fans and no one elses. I stand 100% in what I have said and knowing some Liverpudlians as I do, nothing will ever surprise me in what they are capable of. Would you expect Norwich, Bury to conduct themselves in a similar manner.

Do you honestly believe if it was the Wednesday fans in that position they would have been treated like the Liverpool fans as being totally blamless. Just because quite a few on here have expressed their views and opinions doesn't for mean we haven't shown respect for the ones who died. If you think that you are a disgrace for even thinking it.

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So I am bigot because my views don't match yours. Was it the Forest fans who were to,blame, was it the Wednesday fans who were to blame. Read the facts what posters have put on here and you might get a clearer picture of what could have caused this accident. By the way, I did mention my condolences towards tragic fans who lost ther lifes.

If for instance people knew now what they knew a hour or so before the accident happened, do you personally think they would have acted any differently regarding those fans who tried to gate crash the Leppings Lane entrances and turning up without tickets. Totally and utterly hypothetical saying this would have been replicated by 'many'other fans in the same situation. Would you like to elaborate which other clubs in your opinion would replicate this. But it wasn't, it was Liverpool fans and no one elses. I stand 100% in what I have said and knowing some Liverpudlians as I do, nothing will ever surprise me in what they are capable of. Would you expect Norwich, Bury to conduct themselves in a similar manner.

Do you honestly believe if it was the Wednesday fans in that position they would have been treated like the Liverpool fans as being totally blamless. Just because quite a few on here have expressed their views and opinions doesn't for mean we haven't shown respect for the ones who died. If you think that you are a disgrace for even thinking it.

I'd honestly leave this alone mate....Simply rest with your own opinion and be comfortable with that...it just gets drawn out and you face a losing battle as a Wednesday fan.

THe fact you and everyone else has shown their sympathy for the poor 96 fans that died...as you get deeper into the blame game...and apportion it.....you can only go so far with it...as one section of the whole disaster is apparently sacrosanct...and they did ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong...they played no part in it whatsoever...its pointless...and it simply rakes over old coals that make Wednesday fans cringe....its a burden of guilt every Owls fan seems to carry simply by association...I'm heartily sick of it...I will always take the minutes silence for the 96 with the respect those fellow football fans deserve...as for the rest..i'll hold my own council..... and opinion

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One thing I have always been puzzled by is this argument that LIverpool should have had the Kop. Forest sold out the Kop themselves - so following the logic of the argument either Forest fans would be expendable in the crush at Leppings Lane, OR, there is a tacit admittance that the Liverpool fans' behaviour was more likely to cause problems at the Leppings Lane end than Forest fans.

Like many have said above - respect for the dead and thoughts for the bereaved.

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So I am bigot because my views don't match yours. Was it the Forest fans who were to,blame, was it the Wednesday fans who were to blame. Read the facts what posters have put on here and you might get a clearer picture of what could have caused this accident. By the way, I did mention my condolences towards tragic fans who lost ther lifes.

If for instance people knew now what they knew a hour or so before the accident happened, do you personally think they would have acted any differently regarding those fans who tried to gate crash the Leppings Lane entrances and turning up without tickets. Totally and utterly hypothetical saying this would have been replicated by 'many'other fans in the same situation. Would you like to elaborate which other clubs in your opinion would replicate this. But it wasn't, it was Liverpool fans and no one elses. I stand 100% in what I have said and knowing some Liverpudlians as I do, nothing will ever surprise me in what they are capable of. Would you expect Norwich, Bury to conduct themselves in a similar manner.

Do you honestly believe if it was the Wednesday fans in that position they would have been treated like the Liverpool fans as being totally blamless. Just because quite a few on here have expressed their views and opinions doesn't for mean we haven't shown respect for the ones who died. If you think that you are a disgrace for even thinking it.

Since the same thing very nearly happened with Spurs in 1981 I feel confident saying it's not just Liverpool, yeah.

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Exactly this.

I agree that today isn't the day to discuss who was to blame but I get sick of hearing all this JFT96 rubbish.

A number of factors caused the tragedy including the action of the Liverpool fans themselves. Nothing will ever change my view on that.

And the wire fences that were put up at the front of all football terraces that prevented people escaping the crush - why were they put up? Heysel. And who caused Heysel.....?

As I previously said my heart goes out to those who lost loved ones but all this justice rubbish needs to stop. If it doesn't my worry is the chants that the Chelsea fans were shouting may become a regular occurrence across the country.

And I'm so glad we no longer have a minutes silence at Hillsborough now.

Not factually correct. Fences were well up before Heysel.
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Sadly, I don't think the Liverpool fans help themselves. When you look at the reaction to Alan Davies comments about them playing on April 15th, it just doesn't encourage a decent debate. Death threats for god's sake?

I think people get sick of having to tip toe around the issue for fear of the liverpudlian backlash. If this is bigotry, then so be it.

I know they're are the vast majority of Liverpool fans who have very sensible views on this. I just think the minority hold back real progress because people aren't prepared to air their proper opinions on this in the public domain.

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No disrespect to you post, but the ones who went without tickets probably havent battered an eye lid for those who died. Scum of the earth. Liverpool supporters can all blame poor stewarding, poor Policing, bad tunnel design of the Lep end etc, but will never bring into the argument the root cause. I understand they still do it to this this day turning up without tickets. It must be a scouse thing!!!!!!!!!! What took place at Hillsborough that day has left an lasting impression of that club and it's set of so called fans. It makes my skin crawl when you see pictures on TV when matches are played at Anfield and they are giving it 'You'll never walk alone' Utter bolloxs.

Well said!! 100% agree.They never ever mention Heysel that seams to have escaped their memories. No minutes silences for that! They make me sick.
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Guest JC Saviour

I'd honestly leave this alone mate....Simply rest with your own opinion and be comfortable with that...it just gets drawn out and you face a losing battle as a Wednesday fan.

THe fact you and everyone else has shown their sympathy for the poor 96 fans that died...as you get deeper into the blame game...and apportion it.....you can only go so far with it...as one section of the whole disaster is apparently sacrosanct...and they did ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong...they played no part in it whatsoever...its pointless...and it simply rakes over old coals that make Wednesday fans cringe....its a burden of guilt every Owls fan seems to carry simply by association...I'm heartily sick of it...I will always take the minutes silence for the 96 with the respect those fellow football fans deserve...as for the rest..i'll hold my own council..... and opinion

Aplogise for the impression I have given as being a Wednesdayite who carries a burden of guilt, this cannot be further from the truth. One thing I ain't and will challenge anyone is accused of a being a bigot. We are all sick of it and we as supporters of the club cannot and should not carry any burden of guilt. We are not raking over old coals, this is coming up every few months regading justice and as a fan of my beloved club, I feel the stature of our club as such is diminishing each and everytime the 'Justice committee seem fit to demand justice at every opportunity. It should be directed at those people to stop raking over old coals and let the dead RIP. I now wish that those associated with the'demand Justice' realise what effects it as on people or are not associated with Liverpool FC. That in my opiinion is extremely selfish act. If posters on here don't like my views or appraoch on this then don't bother replying. Its a sodding forum and I shall traet as such. Mentioned it before, if your not one of the choesn few on here then your view is traeted with contemp and being accused of a flipping bigot. Direct your comments to the knob who goes round damning the same supporters.

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Guest JC Saviour

Since the same thing very nearly happened with Spurs in 1981 I feel confident saying it's not just Liverpool, yeah.

Geographically, Southport adjacent to Liverpool. I now see the reasoning behind your reply.Yeah.By the way what you have just mentioned did it happen or not. 'Nearly' surely doesn't count. So your confidence is misplaced somewhat.
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Guest Big Guns

Nowt to do with the 96 so don't take this the wrong way but I know a scouser who went to the recent final and semi without a ticket

He said its easy to get in 2 can get through the turnstyle and loads of them did it ...

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Well said!! 100% agree.They never ever mention Heysel that seams to have escaped their memories. No minutes silences for that! They make me sick.

I agree about Heysel now becoming a blur of a memory and not being remembered about it being a shamefull episode in the histrory of English Football.

Also the fact that the Liverpool FC hierarchy blamed Chelsea fans and the fact that 14, yes fourteen fans, were convicted of manslaughter with the most severe sentence handed out was 3 years, with only half the sentence served and it is unclear how many served their sentences.

However, this tragic moment in criminality happened on 29th May when the football season has ended.

Another disgraceful episode related to Heysel was the way Phil Neal, (Liverpool Captain on that Day) tried to use this tradegy for financial gain (if you believe this report. We had this thread on ot about 2 years ago but it still rankles me.( http://www.owlstalk.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/129745-heysel-disaster-25th-anniversary/ )

Quite Staggering the comments made by Liverpool Captain in the Guardian to reporter Jamie Jackson's Article for the 20th Anniversay,

Phil Neal

Then: Liverpool captain, 34

Now: Merseyside Radio commentator

I'd rather forget that night. It was an ordeal. But, Jamie, why should I help you out? I'm helping you pay your mortgage [by talking to you about Heysel]. When people ask me for my view, they usually have to pay for it. You're asking for my help for nothing. To pay your mortgage, Jamie. I mean, what do you want from me?

I just thought that as the captain of Liverpool football club on that night at Heysel it would be good to hear your view?

Yes but what do you want from me? If I talk to you for a few minutes, then I'm helping you pay your mortgage and what am I getting in return? Do you know what I mean?

Well, I have been to Italy and talked with some of the families of the victims and they say that the trophy should be given back by Juventus to commemorate what happened.

About Juventus? Why are you asking me? Why are you asking someone on the Liverpool side? Juventus made amends very soon. Ask them ... Jamie I'm helping you pay your mortgage. People who want my views pay.

I'm sorry, but everyone else I have spoken to has ...

Great. So you've spoken to people, you've got your views. You've got your Liverpool view, but if you want mine for free, well people pay for them.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2005/apr/03/newsstory.sport

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Since the same thing very nearly happened with Spurs in 1981 I feel confident saying it's not just Liverpool, yeah.

Geographically, Southport adjacent to Liverpool. I now see the reasoning behind your reply.Yeah.By the way what you have just mentioned did it happen or not. 'Nearly' surely doesn't count. So your confidence is misplaced somewhat.

Don't see your point but I was at the '81 semi final and what is referred to as "the same thing very nearly happened with Spurs in 1981" is that Spurs fans were getting crushed in the Lepping Lane end but thankfully managed to climb over the fences and the gates in the fences were opened. Out of interest I was on the Kop that day and it was at best 3/4 full.
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Geographically, Southport adjacent to Liverpool. I now see the reasoning behind your reply.Yeah.By the way what you have just mentioned did it happen or not. 'Nearly' surely doesn't count. So your confidence is misplaced somewhat.

Yes. Broken arms, legs and ribs. 38 people either hospitalised or treated by St Johns Ambulance Brigade.

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The only justice those poor souls who turned up early, with tickets who were totally blameless would get, would be if the thousands who turned up with tickets who left the pubs out of their skulls and rampaged down Halifax road knowing full well what they were doing had been charged with retrospective manslaughter!!!! It is an insult to pretend they are asking for justice whilst totally ignoring the facts that are an inconvenience to them. The Sun newspaper suffered the consequence of even 'hinting' at the truth with a blanket Merseyside ban on selling the newspaper. I walked out of the minutes silence at the first Wednesday match following the disaster, due to the sheer blatant hypocrisy of the events as they were being reported. I also had witnessed friends being stabbed walking back to coaches. Young skanks on bikes whizzing past slashing people with 'Stanley'. I would have had a lot more respect for JFT 96 if even 1 scouser had come out and gone public and admitted that even in some small way they were partly (or solely) to blame. Not a peep!! Professional victims to a man, and i won't even mention the compensation that SWFC ought to have received for lost revenue from the Heysel ban. Obviously caused by unruly Italians running riot and killing themselves. JFT 96?? Maybe the truth would be justice enough!!!

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Guest coheed

Nowt to do with the 96 so don't take this the wrong way but I know a scouser who went to the recent final and semi without a ticket

He said its easy to get in 2 can get through the turnstyle and loads of them did it ...

Many traveled to Athens in 2007 without a ticket or fakes. Trouble broke out there too.

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Guest JC Saviour

Yes. Broken arms, legs and ribs. 38 people either hospitalised or treated by St Johns Ambulance Brigade.

Thought my reply was aimed at the person originally replying to my first (southportdc) unless you are one of the same with 2 sign ons. Got to tread very carefully here as you are one of the 'established ' posters but seeing as you have got involved what is your opinion with regard to Hillsboro 96 and Hysel. Would you say there was a similarity in the end result, sonny. Bit more serious the latter than broken arms and ribs. Wouldn't you agree. I'll probably get a response from Southportdc.
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An awful event, but the cynic in me says this is now more to do with compensation, than justice. The apportionment of blame will enable an address to be put on the law suit letters.

I'm really not sure what they want, as anyone with half a brain understands that like most tragic events such as this, there were a number of contributory factors. On numerous occasions, from numerous witnesses, it's been claimed that drunken fans, turning up late was one of these contributory factors. Yet they still won't accept it. As harsh as it sounds, it's time to move on.

RIP the 96.

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