ramone Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I thoroughly agree with spiney Norman on the rape scenario , my granddaughter suffered the same fate and still has nightmares to this day sorry Ramone but the ched should never see a football stadium again a far as i'm concerned, the damage he must have done to that young lady is a life sentence in it's own way , Again Trev, i'm sorry to hear that you have experienced the trauma a certain crime can cause first hand. But there are so many touchy debating points as far as things like this are concerned. People cant argue that someone that has served their time should be able to fit back in with society because they have 'paid their dues by doing time' and then in the same breathe say Ched Evans shouldn't be allowed to do so because of the crime he committed. Surely, he's done his time and should be allowed to fit back in with society...? In no way am i trying to condone rape. Or do i think its acceptable if you are prepared to go to jail. I'm just saying we cant have one set of morals that suit Gary Madine and then another set for Ched Evans......??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spineynorman78 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Again Trev, i'm sorry to hear that you have experienced the trauma a certain crime can cause first hand. But there are so many touchy debating points as far as things like this are concerned. People cant argue that someone that has served their time should be able to fit back in with society because they have 'paid their dues by doing time' and then in the same breathe say Ched Evans shouldn't be allowed to do so because of the crime he committed. Surely, he's done his time and should be allowed to fit back in with society...? In no way am i trying to condone rape. Or do i think its acceptable if you are prepared to go to jail. I'm just saying we cant have one set of morals that suit Gary Madine and then another set for Ched Evans......??? But even the British justice system does not just leave rapists be once they've served their time. They go on the sex offenders register and are barred from certain kinds of work and social activities. The law in this way makes a clear distinction between sexual assaults and other crimes and doesn't consider the matter closed after the sentence has passed, as it does in other cases. Personally I think the fact that Evans and those close to him are still protesting his innocence suggests he's not learned anything. And I don't think he should play again because of a combination of that and the severity of his crime - and there is, in my mind, a clear qualitative difference between rape and crimes like GBH that makes treating rapists differently from other criminals differently once they have served their time. If he'd accepted his guilt and made a real effort to atone for what he did I might be persuaded that his career, like his life, could be rehabilitated but there is no sign whatsoever of him even accepting responsibility. Sorry to be pedantic but he hasn't served his time he's still got 13 months left to do. He's out on licence which will carry certain conditions. Break any or one of these and he can be returned to serve the rest of his sentence. He has to be a good little boy until March next year at least. I agree with your comments about being assaulted and raped there is not and cannot be any comparison between the two. True - happy to stand corrected on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roaminowl Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Again Trev, i'm sorry to hear that you have experienced the trauma a certain crime can cause first hand. But there are so many touchy debating points as far as things like this are concerned. People cant argue that someone that has served their time should be able to fit back in with society because they have 'paid their dues by doing time' and then in the same breathe say Ched Evans shouldn't be allowed to do so because of the crime he committed. Surely, he's done his time and should be allowed to fit back in with society...? In no way am i trying to condone rape. Or do i think its acceptable if you are prepared to go to jail. I'm just saying we cant have one set of morals that suit Gary Madine and then another set for Ched Evans......??? A well reasoned argument but (and this is just my personal opinion) a rapist will NEVER 'pay their dues by doing time'. It comes down to the severity of the crime as far as I am concerned. I have no problem with being seen as hypocritical for allowing one person who committed a crime the right to be accepted back into society, after rehabilitation, but not accepting another based purely upon the nature of the crime. That's just how I'm wired up I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burncrossowl Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Also, people that are not happy about him possibly returning to the club (like me) are being accused of being do-gooders. How does that work, surely it is the folk who can just accept a thug returning to the club, who has been involved in at least counts of alcohol induced violence - that are the do-gooders? Bleeding heart Liberal's at best. I don't like to think of a portion of my Season Ticket money being wasted on a good for nothing, undeserving thug. Sack Mattock too then, and Tottenham should sack Kyle Walker too because he hit a kid I know at a wedding last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagmeister Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) . Edited February 21, 2014 by Dagmeister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagmeister Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) Again Trev, i'm sorry to hear that you have experienced the trauma a certain crime can cause first hand. But there are so many touchy debating points as far as things like this are concerned. People cant argue that someone that has served their time should be able to fit back in with society because they have 'paid their dues by doing time' and then in the same breathe say Ched Evans shouldn't be allowed to do so because of the crime he committed. Surely, he's done his time and should be allowed to fit back in with society...? In no way am i trying to condone rape. Or do i think its acceptable if you are prepared to go to jail. I'm just saying we cant have one set of morals that suit Gary Madine and then another set for Ched Evans......??? Fully agree. So sorry to hear about such a thing happening to Trev's kin though. You are right to allude to it being pretty nigh on impossible to discuss rationally such a subject on a forum like this. Quite apart from the excellent points that you make I also think that the Evans affair was and is a very complex one notwithstanding his undeniably sleazy, at best, actions. That aside the main gyst of your argument is one that I fully concur with; that we can't on one hand say he's done the crime, served his time whilst on the other hand......... Edited February 21, 2014 by Dagmeister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roaminowl Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 That aside the main gyst of your argument is one that I fully concur with; that we can't on one hand say he's done the crime, served his time whilst on the other hand......... I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagmeister Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I can. Yes fair enough. I should have said its inequitable in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corneliusreeve Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 A well reasoned argument but (and this is just my personal opinion) a rapist will NEVER 'pay their dues by doing time'. It comes down to the severity of the crime as far as I am concerned. I have no problem with being seen as hypocritical for allowing one person who committed a crime the right to be accepted back into society, after rehabilitation, but not accepting another based purely upon the nature of the crime. That's just how I'm wired up I guess. But what would you do with a rapist then, castrate him would that be enough to pay his dues, or a murderer, would you hang him, or a full life sentence? We've just had a fall out between our government and the European rights about it being wrong to sentence people without the right of parole. I would just like to point out that my own views are on stiffer more punitive sentences but the law of the land at the moment says different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest phshaw Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 And here you have the measure of SG and his man management skills. That's exactly what David Prutton said last night at Hirsty's Bar. Basically Stuart has time for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burncrossowl Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Madines attitude on the pitch is all that ive hated about Wednesday over the last 2 years. Light weight, no effort, doesn't give a crap, egotistical. No end product. Thats Madine but some people seem to forget everything. Unbelievable. I don't care about the crimes as that's all in the past. He's lucky how he'll probably get another chance with us and if he plays how he did in League One in this league we'll have a multi million £ striker again. The league 1 team he played in had the same sort of drive and work rate that we are showing now, the team he played a bit part roll in last season didn't. I want him to be given the chance to be the player he was in L1, in the championship, it's up to him to prove it. Madines attitude on the pitch is all that ive hated about Wednesday over the last 2 years. Light weight, no effort, doesn't give a crap, egotistical. No end product. Thats Madine but some people seem to forget everything. Unbelievable. I don't care about the crimes as that's all in the past. He's lucky how he'll probably get another chance with us and if he plays how he did in League One in this league we'll have a multi million £ striker again. The league 1 team he played in had the same sort of drive and work rate that we are showing now, the team he played a bit part roll in last season didn't. I want him to be given the chance to be the player he was in L1, in the championship, it's up to him to prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheffield_dave Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I don't know why people keep saying "crime is crime" as if all are equal. LEGALLY not all crime is equal. We have entire processes set up to deal with this and decide to what extent one crime is to be treated. Stealing sweets from the post office is against the law but we don't give life sentences for it. Assault is not rape. Madine is not Evens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roaminowl Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 But what would you do with a rapist then, castrate him would that be enough to pay his dues, or a murderer, would you hang him, or a full life sentence? I would just like to point out that my own views are on stiffer more punitive sentences but the law of the land at the moment says different. Something along those lines would satisfy me, both as a sentence that is deserved and as a deterrent to others. Part of the problem, as I see it, is not just the laws of the land being weak (in my opinion) but also the overcrowding in the prisons. Is the problem too many criminals or not enough prisons? Either way, it leads to criminals being released early to make room for the next lot coming in. In this case there is nothing to differentiate between Madine or Ched - both will have served less than what they were sentenced with (assumption alert). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darra Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 But even the British justice system does not just leave rapists be once they've served their time. They go on the sex offenders register and are barred from certain kinds of work and social activities. The law in this way makes a clear distinction between sexual assaults and other crimes and doesn't consider the matter closed after the sentence has passed, as it does in other cases. Personally I think the fact that Evans and those close to him are still protesting his innocence suggests he's not learned anything. And I don't think he should play again because of a combination of that and the severity of his crime - and there is, in my mind, a clear qualitative difference between rape and crimes like GBH that makes treating rapists differently from other criminals differently once they have served their time. If he'd accepted his guilt and made a real effort to atone for what he did I might be persuaded that his career, like his life, could be rehabilitated but there is no sign whatsoever of him even accepting responsibility. True - happy to stand corrected on that. apology accepted joking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tilIdie Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 This isn't a guy who got unlucky on a random night out, being in the wrong place at the wrong time. He was charged with ABH back in November 2010, for an assault in Carlisle. He got away with Community Service on that occasion. Then in October 2013 he was charged and convicted with ABH and GBH for two completely separate incidents. He was jailed for 18 months, he has served 5 months. For all the people that say he has been wrongly advised etc, has this 'advisor' followed him around the country and told him to assault people over a 3 year period? He had a very privileged position, and he blew it. He is not fit to wear the Blue and White shirt, he is not fit to collect part of my hard earned money - I don't ever wish to see him at Hillsborough again. Well said!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spineynorman78 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I can. Me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthowl Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I'm in the camp that if you commit the crime, serve the time and are let out, you are then back in society. You can then play football professionally. No distinction on the crime (except perhaps if the crime relates to football corruption etc). Rape is more serious than assault. This is reflected in the prison sentence and the longer term placing on the sex offenders list. Being on the list does not, in itself, stop someone being employed as a footballer. If you disagree with this principle, you should petition the FA to introduce "a fit and proper players test" and/or you MP for a change in the law. Whilst there are a range of views expressed in these posts, most are genuinely held, and I can respect them even though I disagree with them. What does depress me is the amount of people who think getting into fights is the norm and that assaulting someone is ok as long as you have had a few drinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagmeister Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Whilst there are a range of views expressed in these posts, most are genuinely held, and I can respect them even though I disagree with them. What does depress me is the amount of people who think getting into fights is the norm and that assaulting someone is ok as long as you have had a few drinks. I think this peripheral discussion has its roots here too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulva Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Get him back, get him fit, sell him and invest elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CS5swfc Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Get gary madine goal machine going for the whole 9th minute as a sign to the club and him we forgive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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