David Hirst or Dalian Atkinson

[Guest Distraught!]

getting Willow in once he had left really brought Hirsty on tho and gave a better balance up front!!!

I am not disagreeing with you here. You could be right but I also think Dalian Atkinson would have had a field day in the old Second Division if he had of hung around. His pace and strength would have terrorised defences in that league. The same goes for Hirsty. It is possible that Willo did help him along but someone with Hirsty's ability playing in that league with the likes of Sheridan, Palmer etc. supplying the ammo was always going to score a poo pooload. Sheringham was also playing in the same league at the time for Millwall. He was the same. Far too good for second division defences.

[Guest]

Other than probably ending up winning 100 more caps, scoring 100 more goals at the top level in England and Europe by the time he finishes and costing £29.75m more than Hirst, you're right, nothing in it.

Hirst was a great player for us, and as a local lad deserved his cult status. But to compare him to one of the best young players this country has produced for a long time, is blueandwhitespecs ballacks of the highest order.

Rooney is a great player at club level but at international level on the big stage he has been a big let down since Euro 2004.

Rooney has of course achieved more but if Hirst had played for the global machine that is man ure in his prime at a tie when 4 teams qualified for the Champions League then Hirst would also have won major medals and scored bags of goals in all major competitions.

To say Rooney is a much better player than Hirst was due to his goals in big competitions is a little short sighted and unfair. Nicolas Bendtner may have scored more goals in top level games when his career ends than Hirst did, does that make him a better player?

[MAL]

Can't really think of anyone who is better than Hurst....

Bobby Charlton?

Hurst was better on the day that mattered though!

Ha Ha

That wind up went down quicker than United from the Premiership .

[Errol Flashman]

 

For that season alone I think Dalian edged it.  Hirsty was the boy wonder from his debut onward  but in many ways that was the worst thing he could have done as it brought instant pressure as well as instant adulation. It's easy to forget that he was in and out of the side the season before. He was the lad that wanted to smash every finish. He had found himself out wide at times when Wilko had used that 3-4-3. As a young developing lad he was at times left out for Colin West which sounds unbelievable now.

 

Some people had Dalian and Hirsty down as similar players, but that isn't really fair on either. They were both lightening quick certainly, the difference being that Hirsty was known to run when he didn't have the ball too !

 

Dalian ran from the balls of his feet giving him that lightness when dribbling and running. Hirsty ran through the flat of his foot and his heel , sadly this is a style that most athletic coaches and podiatrists will tell you will lead to long term knee, ankle and Achilles problems not to mention collapsed arches. I heard him more than once described as a raging bull with his style. The evil Arsenal back four of course , B***d and A**ms in particular seemed to take it in turns to smash him (this of course being the days that the tackle from behind was still considered a valid part of the game) and no doubt paid a huge part in the injuries which no doubt curtailed his career. But his running gait will have has some part to play as well, no doubt about that.

 

Dalian Atkinson had everything to be a top class player. Power, strength pace, he could dribble at pace and he would shoot with either foot.

 

Atkinsons move to Spain was a huge blow to Wednesday. It was no secret within the game that he was being considered for the national side squad to go to Italy as  a wildcard back up player in Bobby Robsons squad. In the end Robson stuck with Steve Bull (then in the second division with Wolves. ) Atkinsons move was a big deal and a bit of a shock not many English players at that time moved to Europe . But in Sociedad things were a bit different  . Under Liverpool legend John Toshack Real Sociedad at that time had quite a anglo vibe with Arsenals Kevin Richardson over there after falling out with George Graham at Highbury.   John Aldridge was also at the Anoeta  after finding himself down the pecking order at Liverpool (despite 63  goals in 100 games.) This was down to  Ian Rushs  return to Anfield to partner Peter Beardsey.  So there would be English faces in the dressing room to help Dalian Settle and in the end it wasn't the upheaval it could have been.

The fee he went to Spain for  was very big money at that time. Though a devastating blow to  The Wednesday  It did however  allow Ron Atkinson to strengthen the team 'overall' by bringing in Paul Williams up top and Danny Wilson in midfield and still pocketing £800k for the bank.

(Many were gutted at the time , and i was one of them but the move for  Wilson onto the right side of midfield and Worthington onto the left from Full back was one of the foundation stones of the following season. Bennett, Carr and others who played on the wing had left Wednesday slightly exposed at the back in that relegation season. Much as Helan and Antonio have this last 28 months . Wilson and Worthington provided more defensive stability in midfield. (A trick not lost on Gray it seems with Palmer and Lee being recalled of late for out and out wingers Antonio and JJ ,. Also a something GM tried when MM turned the screw on results the other year by putting JOC out wide - admittedly with mixed results ).

 

The sale of Dalian Atkinson allowed Wednesday a stronger squad in depth. It also freed up more cash to allow Wednesday to resign top players such as Sheridan and Nilsson who's contracts were up.

 

In the long term, though gutting Dalian Atkinsons sale was a 'no brainer'.

 

The other thing about Dalians sale was that his replacement Paul Williams, whilst technically not in the same class really brought the best out in Hirst.

Paul Williams wasn't the most prolific of strikers (as his career totals of just  65 in 300 games indicate. Indeed in the remaining 6 years of his career as a pro after leaving Wednesday he bagged just 14 more goals as he sank down the divisions. )

 Not the biggest at 5"7 and not the fastest. Not really selling him am i ?

What he was though,  was a model professional. He didn't drink. He never missed training and was often described by coaches Richie Barker and fitness trainer Roger Spry as one of the best trainers who never gave less than 100%.

He also had a personal pride which meant that this same attitude to training was taken onto the pitch in every single game he played. I don't think a Wednesday player during my time has ever had so many fans willing him to do well.

 

How did he live up to Dalian ? In truth he didn't .

His expertise was in that he' helped' make Hirst the devastating player he was in the role he played. (I'm not suggesting that it was all down to Willow. Just that the partnership element was a big part in helping Hirsty. He'd have bagged goals wherever he was. B)  

Managers and pundits alike talk at length about willingness to 'work the channels'. Paul Williams had tactical awareness and worked the channels harder than any other forward I have seen. He chased full backs down, he chased lost causes and .... something never to be underrated he made totally unselfish dummy runs into wide areas to pull centre halves out of the way and create spaces for Hirst to drive into, usually from Sheridan thru-balls..

Anyone who has ever played as a full back will always tell you the importance of forwards who will run away from goal so that they (the full backs)  have an out ball when they are under pressure. Williams gave King, Worthington, Nilsson , Wilson and Harkes an 'emergency outball' every single time they required one. Very rarely has a club had such an unrelenting ball breaking 'team-man' than Paul Williams.

As someone said on here earlier. He was the perfect foil for Hirst. 

He's a player that will always be looked back on with fondness.

Here was a man who ran himself into the floor for Wednesday and described doing so as "a blessing". He was a player keen to do what was best for the team and was happy for others to take the headlines and plaudits. A Paul Williams would make a refreshing change for managers in the modern game that's for sure.

 

Ironically whilst Williams and his unselfish channel work was helping bring out the best in Hirsty Atkinson also enjoyed the best spell of his career when he found himself a similar partner at Villa Park. Dean Saunders, outcast by Souness at Liverpool was, as many Owls fans had noted from his time with Derby,  a tremendous work horse but with a goals record to boot. Indeed more than once I have heard in the inner circles it suggested that had Wednesday signed him up front instead of brining in Woods in goal then that third placed finish in the top division might have just squeezed us over the line for the title. (But that's another thread for another day)

 

Wow, I'm really banging on about Paul Williams here ! But the point is this. As well as talent forwards (certainly in the days when 4-4-2 was still prevalent) were often all about the partnership as well as the individual talents. Whilst Hirst and Williams couldn't be described as a 'devastating partnership' they were one that had two players who different tools, attitude and skills made them ideal for each other . Paul Williams couldn't head like Bright or Chapman, tear past people like Warhurst, Dribble like Di Canio or thread a ball like De Gryse or Carbone. But if you were to ask David Hirst who is favourite partner was in his 15 year career I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever he would say Paul Williams. Sometimes people and their skill sets and mentality just click.

 

Ron Atkinson described Dalian Atkinson as "potentially one of the best forwards Britain has ever produced"

He had pace. He had power. His upper body strength was unreal. (His goal for Villa against Wimbledon highlights this (sadly only 13 second clip- doesn't show the full run) - as challenge after challenge and barge after barge bounce off him) - One of the other remarkable things about that goal is the finish. Have you ever run 40 yards with a ball I'll guarantee you'll know that by the time you get into a striking position you are either so knackered you don't have the power in the shot or if you have you end up blazing it. The subtle finish in that Villa goal shows the other side to Dalian. Supreme composure and self confidence combined with technique.

 

Alan Hansen Liverpools highly decorated centre half (8 league titles, 2 FA cups, 4 League Cups, and 3 European Cups ) was one of the best defenders of his generation and often described as a Rolls Royce. What Atkinson did to him in a 2-0 Wednesday win in 89 was make him look like a pub player. Quite simply when Dalian was 'on it' no centre half could live with him. The problem was... Atkinson through his career was 'off it' less than he was 'on it'.

Why  ? Who knows. Personality. Attitude. As Graham Taylor might say "his refuelling habits" !  

 

David Hirst admits himself he was no big fan of the game. Didn't watch much football but really enjoyed playing the game and gave it his all when he did.

Dalian Atkinson didn't watch much football either, the difference being that at times looked like he wasn't too big a fan of playing the game either - It was simply something he was good at.

His Career post Wednesday Took him to Vila where he won the League Cup.  

After a lean spell once Ron Atkinson pulled him aside one and told him straight. "Get fit, lose weight , you should be playing for England. You're twice the player Shearer is"

Dalians response ?  - "Pay me like Shearer and I'll play like him"

 

As I said here is a man who wasn't overly bothered with football. It was just something he was very good at.

 

Then a spell in Turkey where he got 11 in 22. Then a spell in Saudi with Ittihad FC. There is a story about him there that really sums him up. It goes that Dalian hadn't scored for a month or two. The Chairman entered the dressing room before a game and told the players that his son was guest of honor and that anyone who scored would get a Rolls Royce. Dalian , weeks without a goal duly bagged a 20 minute Hat-trick.

 

How would I sum up Dalian Atkinson ? I'd describe him as a player who had everything and if he had the application could have probably have had his choice of clubs in World Football he had that much potential. He joins a list however, of talented players that never lived up to what he should have achieved.

If you could have combined the Atkinson ability, physique, technique, power, pace and natural ability with the tactical nous , dedication, never say die spirit, application , team work and dedication to his profession of Paul Williams you'd have had on your hands one of the best strikers in the history of British football.  

Sadly these Dr Frankenstein style combos are unavailable to us !

 

David Hirst was and will always be a legend and rightly so.  His left foot was the stuff of Legend enough so that Ferguson tried to sign him three times.( Not least forgetting that by the time he'd raised his bid to £4m he'd told Martin Edwards that he was unwilling to pay as much for Shearer.) His appearances, his goals, his thrusting , thundering style made him the stuff od dreams and defenders nightmare. Also legendary   was his drinking.  And here's another thing - Hirst was one of us. He was a normal Yorkshire lad who liked a pint. Combined with his swashbuckling all action style this only made him more of a hero.  When Hirst was on the park he could live our dreams for us when he was on the lash off it no one would begrudge it him.  

His goals, excitement  factor , his all action driving style and not least his availability to fans and down to earth personality made him much more than an on pitch lcon. He was, on and off the pitch a Legend. He was the full package Roy of the Rovers and always will be.  No player before or since had probably captured the hearts of fans in the way David Hirst did. He was Superman in a Wednesday shirt.

 

And to think non of it might have happened had that stupid transfer deal gone through. ..

Peter Eustace offered him to Everton as a makeweight along with £500k for 31 year old past his best Graham Sharp. (Then again this is a man who rated Colin West as better than Hirsty so maybe that isn't the shock it should be).

We can only thank our lucky stars that Howard Kendall was probably pissed when he turned down Wednesdays suicidal offer !!

 

Sorry I've banged on. Just found this a very interesting subject.

Doubt anyone will have read this far down!!! .......and if they do I expect the red 'neggers' to start  flashing up !!

Like everyone else though can only comment on what i saw and know.

 

Back to the OP though - Yeah -  For one season Dalian edged it for me.

 

David Hirst. Legend.

 

Dalian Atkinson. A terrifically promising young player who never lived up to the potential.

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2013 by DEH9

[Guest BirdonaMaguire]

Who was better?

We all know Hirsty was a Wednesday legend. However, who was the better player during the 89-90 season?

Atkinson had fantastic pace and ball control but the finishing let him down. Nevertheless, he was top goalscorer that season.

I personally thought Atkinson was better but his departure at the end of this relegation season appeared to be the making of Hirsty.

I'm intrigued to know what other older owls talkers think.

 

Hirsty was top scorer.

[asteener1867]

Atkinsons pace from a standing start was phenomenal....but...Hirsts strength on the ball meant it didn't really matter if a defender caught him, you would back Hirst to win the contest.....Hirst could score rom virtually anywhere..left foot right foot head...Atkinson sometimes squandered chances...Hirst for me...Complete centre forward...and goalkeeper on occasion

[Guest BirdonaMaguire]

Atkinsons pace from a standing start was phenomenal....but...Hirsts strength on the ball meant it didn't really matter if a defender caught him, you would back Hirst to win the contest.....Hirst could score rom virtually anywhere..left foot right foot head...Atkinson sometimes squandered chances...Hirst for me...Complete centre forward...and goalkeeper on occasion

Hirsty loved a battle, he and Stuart Pearce had some reyt battles.

[Utah Owl]

On the strength of that one season alone I would go with Dalian but other than that no contest.

[York_Owl]

 Ironically whilst Williams and his unselfish channel work was helping bring out the best in Hirsty Atkinson also enjoyed the best spell of his career when he found himself a similar partner at Villa Park. Dean Saunders, outcast by Souness at Liverpool was, as many Owls fans had noted from his time with Derby,  a tremendous work horse but with a goals record to boot. Indeed more than once I have heard in the inner circles it suggested that had Wednesday signed him up front instead of brining in Woods in goal then that third placed finish in the top division might have just squeezed us over the line for the title. (But that's another thread for another day) 

great post deh9.  Loads of good points but this one about Dean Saunders is particularly interesting.  I have always thought we were possibly only a top striker away from winning a title or at least more trophies.  I also found it strange that we spent so much on Woods when a striker should have been the priority.  Who are these inner circles that you mention or can you not say?

[Errol Flashman]

PM

 

[Salmonbones]

This is a far better question then most give credit for.

 

The problem is, HIrst and Atkinson were never the best pairing for each other, and the truth is, Hirst went on to have two partners that were quite good for him, in Williams then Bright.

 

I'm not sure about who Atkinson had lining up alongside him when he went abroad, but I remember him saying he used to have to chase down the keeper a lot, chase after scraps etc, that wasn't in his game.   He had to adapt a lot, which if he had stayed at Hillsborough he wouldn't have.   No offence to little Paul Williams, but Atkinson was by far a better footballer and him and Hirst would probably have hit 35 goals or more between them, in a successful season and both gone onto better things.

 

The fact Atkinson brought his namesake back to England to line up for Villa probably tells you how good he was, but - Hirst was the ultimate centre forward, and he still would be today if we had a player like him on our books.   Atkinson would probably (as has been said) be a 50 cap England striker right now, but a fit Hirst throughout his career should have been a 120 cap player.   Easily.  It's a travesty he wasn't allowed to be, it's a travesty those around him didn't protect him a bit more - and i'm not just talking about that fateful day he scored at Highbury with a broken bone.

Edited March 8, 2014 by salmonbones

[Lord Snooty]

 

I'm not sure about who Atkinson had lining up alongside him when he went abroad, but I remember him saying he used to have to chase down the keeper a lot, chase after scraps etc, that wasn't in his game.   He had to adapt a lot, which if he had stayed at Hillsborough he wouldn't have.   No offence to little Paul Williams, but Atkinson was by far a better footballer and him and Hirst would probably have hit 35 goals or more between them, in a successful season and both gone onto better things.

 

 

John Aldridge was also at the Anoeta  after finding himself down the pecking order at Liverpool (despite 63  goals in 100 games.) This was down to  Ian Rushs  return to Anfield to partner Peter Beardsey. 

 

Aldridge. A proper poacher. That would explain why Dalian was having to do the bits of the game he didn't enjoy, working the flanks, well, working full stop come to think of it!

[Tom Moore]

I'd say Dalian Atkinson for the 38 minutes he paid attention and concentrated for, and Hirsty for the rest.

 

The guy should have been an absolute superstar, quick, powerful, scored unbelievable goals.

 

All he ended up as was a lazy waste of talent.